MFL and native speakers

[IrmaFayLear]

Dd is considering A Level French. Should she?

Because, as I suspected, from the Ofqual website:

we know from anecdotal evidence that there are concerns about the potential impact of native speakers on A level MFL results. In particular, there are concerns that the number of native speakers is increasing and that, as a result, students for whom the MFL is a second language are being disadvantaged.

There were other details about how half of those gaining A* were native speakers, and they were heavily impacting the grade boundaries. This is serious stuff for dd, who is quite ambitious.

[LIZS]

Dd is taking 2 mfl A levels - one today - and the native speakers are definitely having to do less basic language revision although the literature /film is a significant element that demands other skills too. Sadly I think the overall decline of mfl teaching and take up has determined that the proportion of native speakers is rising. You can still get good grades as a non native speaker and classes benefit from a mixture of students.

[IAmRubbishAtDIY]

I have heard that native speakers do degrees,which no-one has been able to explain to me in a way that made sense .

[IrmaFayLear]

Has she found it dispiriting to be in a class with native speakers? Has she done lots of exchanges/trips etc? And what are her university plans, if you don't mind my asking!

[LIZS]

Irritating rather than dispiriting. She has applied for linguistics as not interested in literature aspect. She has done exchanges but not sure they were a huge benefit.

[stucknoue]

Only one person in DD's class got an a of a* that wasn't a native speaker, and they had a French au pair. It's really hard for non native speakers to achieve top grades at a level unless they are super gifted and have tutors, the bar is high and the teaching was suspect!

[IrmaFayLear]

It is a hard decision given the statistics. And, of course, there are the "hidden" native speakers. Ds's friend is half German but his name doesn't reveal this. We were round there and boy and his mother were practising chatting about recycling - in German.

[CatcherofDreams]

I've never actually considered this angle and my dc have both chosen a MFL at A level and achieved high grades and we are not native speakers.
We have been told by sixth form tutors that a MFL at A level is highly respected by university admissions because it is considered difficult but I wonder if universities take into account whether or not the student is a native speaker?
That said, we never know what 'advantages' students may have in any subject - Mum could be a physics teacher for example.

[BubblesBuddy]

No they don’t take it into account and of course DC are coached by the parent who is the native speaker. It’s clearly hidden when mum is the native speaker and uses her married name.

It’s not new though. My friend is half German and studied German. Spent every summer in Germany. I even know DC who went to Oxford to study MFL they had spoken since a few months after birth. If parents teach the languages, even better!

As Oxford don’t require A*s for MFL you are not wholly disadvantaged and As are good enough but where DD studied, there was a feeling the non native speakers had to work harder. However there is literature and other aspects to the degree, such as the year abroad, that means the degree is fulfilling but obviously language acquisition and translation are easier for the native speaker who is well travelled (every year since birth) and understands a country in depth. It’s insider knowledge that’s difficult for other students to acquire.

DD got As in her MFL languages. As one was a minority language I suspect there were many native speakers taking it. Ditto at degree level!

Having said all of that, she was ambitious and it hasn’t held her back! She’s now a barrister and personality, a good brain and a strong work ethic all mean more than her languages. They were a platform. Not the end result.

If she had her time again, she wouldn’t drop MFL because she was good at them and was lucky enough to have good teachers. They are facilitating subjects so no university will sniff at them. They know they are hard!! The year abroad makes students stand out too. They have to be resilient and organised and a bit fearless! Most are self starters and it’s good for the cv. We didn’t worry about other DC. She did what she was best at!

[fairweathercyclist]

It wasn't an issue for me, I got an A (in the days when there weren't A*s ) and had no family help/background at all except going to the country three times during the A level course. We had two girls in our year whose mums were German and although I wasn't with them for A level, they were both in my GCSE groups and I was never aware of them being that much better than the rest of us, except that they had perfect pronunciation.

DS is planning to do Spanish and we have no background in that whatsoever. I am sure he will do very well and may well end up doing it at uni.

There is no need for people to feel put off doing MFL because of native speakers. And if the exam boards are aware they should offer two courses. You can do two different types of Welsh courses in Wales - obviously if you are Welsh everyone is native, but they offer courses for those who used it as their home language and those who were learning it as a "foreign" language. Can't be that difficult to do the same for those language where they've noticed a strong native speaker trend.

[LIZS]

We know of at least 2 planning to study mfl at uni in a parent's mother tongue .

[BubblesBuddy]

But universities and schools don’t know they are native speakers in many cases, especially if it’s on the mum’s side and the Mum has dad’s name. So who is going to declare it? Why would you? It’s not just language acquisition, it’s the immersion in a culture from an early age that’s also a huge advantage. Welsh at degree level is a bit niche so not the same as French or Spanish as it’s not widely offered.

What happened years ago is somewhat irrelevant. We now have many more native speakers working here and the grade boundaries have been affected by native speakers getting 100%. It makes it harder for non native speakers and people years ago were on a different playing field. At university my DD encountered people with French names studying French who essentially were French. The non native speaker has to be very advantaged or very good to be equivalent.

[Freudianslip1]

I for one am delighted that those who have a MFL mother tongue are doing it for a degree; it would be great if they went on to teach, the standard of MFL teaching in the UK is dire. My dd is doing Spanish A level (no native speakers AFAIK and lots of A/A* grades at GCSE) and they have a (native) Spanish assistant who cannot understand what the teacher is saying.

[BubblesBuddy]

As they are more likely to get the top grades, they don’t necessarily look to teaching for a job. Not one of DDs friends went into teaching. Teachers keep saying how awful the job is and young people, who think they can do something else, have heard that, loud and clear!

[CherryPavlova]

My daughter has just returned from her year abroad in third year of a four year degree. She is not a native speaker in either of the degree languages.
I can’t think she as hugely disadvantaged by native speakers at any point. The cohort in most languages is too small to impact. It’s the minority MFL such as Polish or Romanian that are truly advantaged and given the struggles many of those children have faced, it’s not necessarily a bad thing.
She was a good French speaker as she learnt from nursery age and from holidays/ grandparents who are fluent. Spanish is her first MFL which she starts in year 8. She got a 7 higher in her IB without too much difficulty. She had never spoken Italian until university but after a year in Verona is pretty fluent.
She’s aiming for a first but is very unlikely to teach.

[BubblesBuddy]

Grandparents who are fluent!!! That’s a massive advantage. My DD started language learning at 11 and second language at 12. She’s not had any relative speaking any language and this really does help. Teaching Italian isn’t wanted by the way. DDs friend who considered teaching was told to learn Spanish after graduating. The cohorts of native speakers are not that small when you look at firsts.

[CherryPavlova]

But grandparents fluent in a language she wasn’t studying. Not quite so advantageous.

[CherryPavlova]

I suspect there is an inherited innate ability though and learning one language probably programmes your brain to learn others more easily.

Her grandfather learned French in the army for the first time at about 20 years of age - only Yorkshire before that. Then he was sent to the Sorbonne to learn Romanian through French. He was often mistaken for a French native speaker. Granny learned through school and finishing school.

[BubblesBuddy]

I think early immersion really helps because it uses that part of the brain. Gets it receptive! Yes, I did see she’s doing other languages but getting a head start with any language really helps. We didn’t know DD was any good at languages at all until she was 11 and did better in her French assessment after 1 term than nearly every other child. She was at a private school and all the others had done French at prep school but DD was at state school. She did benefit from good teaching except a supply teacher in y10 who was useless. Thank goodness it greatly improved after that!

[Arewedone]

In same situation. Dd taking French and Spanish A level and almost all her classmates are bilingual from birth. We’ve concluded it will benefit her rather than put her at a disadvantage. Taking Maths and economics too so no idea how this will translate into a uni course atm!

[IrmaFayLear]

Oh dear. No grandparents sent to the Sorbonne here from the army: My grandfather was on the Somme and his brother was killed at 17 years old - presumably before he'd had a chance to learn any French. And as for finishing schools - ha!

[BubblesBuddy]

Well WW1 was 100 years ago but many of us don’t gave linguists anywhere in the family and have just had to support DC in any way we can. However there are definitely students in MFL that have family advantages and they tend to do very well.

When looking at degree courses, adding in a language can result in a lower offer or an offer! Many universities are short of MFL students so it’s always worth keeping up
a language. Add it to Economics or even maths!

[daisypond]

A friend who studied French at a top university became dispirited because so many others were native speakers. It hadn’t occurred to her that there would be native speakers on the course.

[SoonerthanIthought]

"There is no need for people to feel put off doing MFL because of native speakers. And if the exam boards are aware they should offer two courses."

Ofqual are indeed aware, and I think a couple of years ago did some research into the proportions of native speakers taking each mfl at a level. As a result of that they decided to change the grade boundaries in some subjects. to award a higher proportion of As and As to try to compensate. Whether that fully compensates the non native speakers I don't know.

The simple solution would be to make the grades criterion referenced rather than norm referenced, - so that provided you reach a certain level of competence you get the A or A (rather than the top x and y % getting them). Native speakers would probably perform way above the level, but would that matter? I know all other A levels are norm referenced but I think mfls pose a particular problem. (Not quite the same as the physics teacher parent because the extent of the advantage can be so great)

Separate exams for native and non-native might be another answer, but very difficult to define a native speaker. As BB says, one grandparent talking in the language could confer a significant advantage, ditto spending 4 weeks with relations in the country every summer. And would you rely on self-declaration/

[daisypond]

Meant to add, I did both French and German at A level and got A’s in both- this was before the A* grade. No foreign speakers in my family. I didn’t know anyone foreign at all - grew up somewhere rural- and nor had I ever been abroad!

[SoonerthanIthought]

My hunch is that the increased proportion of native speakers has really come about in the past 10-20 yrs or so Daisy - not sure if that would incorporate you, or not?!

Also in the very old days the literature papers involved writing essays in English, so for about a thrid of the syllabus there was no particular advantage to being a native speaker once you were in the exam room. (Or at all really - it would have made it quicker to read the book I suppose, but then there were always translations available as well!) Obviously for the language and oral segments it would still have been an advantage.