A-level: How much harder is Further maths than regular maths?

[lljkk]

or is FM more like parallel level of difficulty, rather than the next stage on of difficulty? I'm asking after a conversation about when do people hit their 'ceiling' with math, wondering if FM is just a bit harder or much harder than regular maths so more likely someone could hit their ceiling with it.

Hoping NobleG is around & I'll get her attention. Thanks in Advance.

[lljkk]

....

[MrSlant]

I am also interested in this so will give it a bump! From DS asking in school it's the same topics as they cover in maths A level but extended. Except sometimes they don't cover the topics at the same time and other times they cover them in further maths before actual maths but that's ok because they work a way round it. So that's not particularly helpful.

Been told by friend with older children that if they want to pursue maths/physics at uni then they need to do it or they will fall behind really quickly. Won't know if school are running it until, ooh, next term. So that's also not particularly helpful!

[GeorgeTheHippo]

Next stage of difficulty based on what my kids (both of whom do it) say.

[lljkk]

Ta 4 bump

DD wants to do reg. math A-level at end of yr12, then chemistry-bio-FM as her 3 UCAS eligible A-levels for end of yr13.

6th form is being obstructive (peeved emoticon). One warning school didn't actually make, but came from an admissions tutor, is that everyone reaches their 'Wow this is hard I'm struggling!' limit with any subject, and FM could be that threshold ("ceiling") for DD. So we're trying to gauge that risk.

(b/c it seems relevant) DD is top of her yr group for math at end of yr11, predicted a 9.

[alphajuliet123]

I was really good at maths until I did it at A Level, it was ridiculously hard and lacked the logic I enjoyed about regular maths. I recall asking the teacher why we needed to know a particularly complex function (something to do with sin cos tan) and he said it would be crucial when building a submarine. As I was going off to university to study business and a language I felt the entire last year was a waste of time. I got an A at GCSE (before the days of A*), an A at AS-Level and then finally a D. Disappointing. Still love normal maths though!

Based on my experience I would advise against it unless it's necessary for career or uni purposes; as a general/pleasant/easy option, no way.

[Berthatydfil]

I was told that unless your dc wants to do maths at university then universities don’t realky give credit for maths and further maths a levels as separate subjects, so for example for medicine

[LoniceraJaponica]

lljkk would the school be able to fit two years worth of study into one year for maths A level, and run the other three subjects simultaneously?

If your DD is wanting to do medicine/vetmed universities don't count maths and FM as two separate subjects, so she might as well do maths and not bother with further maths.

[MrSlant]

DS2 wants to do maths and or physics at uni so I think finding a "ceiling" would be very helpful in sixth form rather than later on! He's one of the top handful in his year group. We do two separate maths GCSE in Wales (pure and 'reasoning' I think) - still on the letter grading system, he sat one early and has an A* in hand so there isn't really any other indicator to go on. He has the best grade you can get here, not sure if it would have been enough for a 9 in England as there is no way of comparing the two, would be interesting if we could.

Have sixth form indicated why your DD can't try at least to do the A levels her way lljkk? Seems a real shame to hold back someone willing to work that hard if they can.

[MrSlant]

More general question here as you've put '3 UCAS eligible A levels' is that how it works. DS1 (not a further maths sort of sixth former so hard to compare) has just been offered points for his unis but is doing 4 subjects which can bring him these points. Can he only count his 3 best subjects or do the more 'academic' degrees that they specify?

[letsgomaths]

I don't think "further maths" is much more difficult than regular A-level maths. But it can be a bit soul-destroying having to learn a lot of theory in FM while seeing very few practical uses for it (these might not appear until university). Regular A-level maths does have some practical uses, but further maths less so, so a student has to be "thirsty for knowledge" to enjoy it.

[TheFrendo]

Why take A level maths in Y12?

a) Will not count for UCAS
b) Removes flexibility of dropping FM after 1 year if too onerous
c) Lose the additional maths learning skills and experience that FM will bring. An A* at A level is pretty standard for FM students.

As for difficulty, well, there is not much on FM that was not in A level maths 30 years ago.

A top of year group student who is predicted a 9 would be an ideal candidate for FM.

[HeddaGarbled]

Yes, of course Further Maths is harder than Maths. The clue is in the name.

[choirmumoftwo]

DD is predicted an 8 or 9 in GCSE maths and and A in further maths (apparently grade boundaries are likely to be low) but has been dissuaded from pursuing further maths at A level. Wants to do a physics degree and even Oxford don't require further maths A level. I guess there's a reason she's been dissuaded and assume it's a big step up.

[TheFrendo]

Íf you want to do physics you should take FM. If you want to do physics at Oxford you should definitely take FM if your school or college offers it. The maths required and studied for a physics degree is way harder than FM. To not take FM because it is hard but want to take physics at Oxford seems odd.

[lljkk]

would the school be able to fit two years worth of study into one year for maths A level, and run the other three subjects simultaneously?

Yes, school do this as standard.

I just looked at AQA syllabus for FM and it's fine. DD can do that (well, I can do it, so we can support at home).

I know all the strategic reasons not to do FM but frankly the more I hear those arguments, the more cemented becomes my desire to support DD in her desire to do FM anyway. Don't want to explain all my 'insider' knowledge, except to say that I jolly well see the FM material as extremely useful for medicine (yes, DD wants to aim for medicine as some guessed). Folk can PM me if intrigued.

Still hoping to hear from NobleG when she can. Thanks for replies.

[hellsbells99]

my DD2 Is doing an engineering degree, 1 of her good friends is doing Physics and another Computer Science. All did 3 A levels plus AS Further Maths in year 13. They wish they could have done the full FM but it was not offered at their school. They did FM at AS level with a tutor and self-study. They all had offers from good universities - there would not have been a problem with only having 3 A levels but obviously doing FM has helped with their degrees.
But this was 2 years ago before the new A levels so I don't know how much the content has changed.

[sendsummer]

lljk I agree with supporting her in her desire if she likes tackling maths problems. Why discourage keen mathematicians. FM is harder but it is by doing harder topics and problems that other stuff becomes easier and better grades are achieved. One of my DCs' schools completed AS in maths and FM in year 12. That worked well as the more extended topics of FM kept able pupils interested as some of maths A level topics are quite repetitive for those who have done add maths in year 11. It also gave the option of completing maths as a full A level in year 13 for those who needed to give up FM.
FM could be useful for a medical career if for example specialising in statistics. She should be mindful though of the time she needs to achieve the required A level grades plus work experience plus fun.

[noblegiraffe]

The school routinely put kids in for A-level maths at the end of Y12 and then do FM in Y13 but somehow think that your DD, who is predicted a 9 and top of the year group will balls it up, unlike other students? Or have I missed something?

Yes FM is harder than A-level and some kids struggle, but it does have the highest rate of A*/A of any A-level suggesting that those who go for it usually tend to do very well. I can’t see at first glance what their concerns are.

You are aware of the usual caveats around FM and medicine?

[GeorgeTheHippo]

Wants to do a physics degree and even Oxford don't require further maths A level.

If she might go for Oxford I'd look into this- I suspect you might find that 95% of the kids on the course do have FM and she'd be at a disadvantage if she didn't. But I don't know for sure, DS is doing maths, where of course they all have FM.

[noblegiraffe]

Actually, one thing is that my school does maths and FM as two separate full-time A-levels. With their set-up, do they double curriculum time or do the A-level in half the time? I’d check their results to see how it pans out.

[choirmumoftwo]

I appreciate that many students taking physics at Oxford will have further maths A level, but it is definitely not an entrance requirement. It may be a disadvantage not to have it when it comes to study, but that's another matter.

[sendsummer]

lljk I guess her school are discouraging her not because of ability but because of drawbacks when wanting to do medicine?
Otherwise it makes no sense as she is doing so well. Unless she is working flat out to achieve her present results?

choirmumoftwo again I see no sense in dissuading a student from doing FM if they want do physics at a top university. How else will they find out if they actually like what university level physics will involve?
Also a natural mathematician could of course catch up lost ground from not doing FM but why go through that if there is the option at school to do at least the equivalent of AS level FM?

[bikingintherain]

Just to say OP if she's aiming for medicine, might be worth checking out whether the university will accept FM. A few years ago, many of them didn't as they wanted to see a more 'rounded' candidate.

A few years ago, I seem to remember that most didn't but a few did accept FM.

[Somewhereoverthesanddune]

Choirmum - not all schools do FM so it's often not a requirement. Anyone wanting to do physics at a top university should do FM if available. If your DC would struggle with FM A-level, they'll struggle with a (top) physics degree.

[noblegiraffe]

Universities often don’t require FM because it would drastically reduce their pool of potential applicants and they want bums on seats and to not disadvantage applicants from schools who don’t offer it.
Students then look at the entry requirements and think that means they don’t need to take further maths, when really they should if they can.