Is Dad Expecting Too Much?

[Charliesunnysky10]

We live a 30 min journey from my 78 year old widowed dad. My mum passed away 20 years ago, and my dad told me he has amassed a decent sum of money which he put away to pass on. He regularly shows me the figures and where it's saved so, as he says, if he dies I can access it.

He need his prostate coring and for over a year has had a catheter while he waits for the NHS op. I have urged him to dip into his blinking billions and go privately, but he refuses to spend any. So he regularly has medical emergencies and I have to travel late at night sometimes to help out. His age and the catheter limiting his lifestyle has made him anxious in general so myself or my hubby need to go and see him almost every day. We have 2 teenage children, so we can go at short notice, but we were looking for houses near him and found one but we'd need a bigger mortgage and my hubby is nervous about taking on a big debt when he could lose his job if the hospitality industry doesn't recover enough.

He would like my dad's blessing and some reassurance that my dad would help financially if he was made redundant. My dad refuses, saying we need to batten down the hatches, that this money is to pass on to future generations. He says we shouldn't move because property prices may plummet and interest rates skyrocket and we'll be repossessed if DH loses his job and have to go into rented. So we are left with an almost daily hour long round trip to do jobs, bring supplies, etc. I'm really brassed off that this would be so much easier if we'd moved to be 5 mins away, but my hubby is scared to make the move when dad says no.

But it's going to get worse, not better and my dad, though I love him dearly is becoming more and more stubborn and demanding. Both my hubby and I work full time and the travel is eating into our lives. We don't mind the time with him at all - quite the reverse. He's our family and we love spending time with him, but it's the unnecessary daily travel I resent. What do you think?

[maxelly]

Hello, really tough one, I would say your Dad probably is expecting a bit too much but I do think it's natural and to an extent to be expected that parents get more dependent on their children and demanding and it's really hard to know where to draw that line.

I do think you are wise to not be taking on a big mortgage at this time if you are unsure of your husband's job security (and in particular if the only reason is to be closer to your father - surely a move at this stage would be quite disruptive to your teens as well, would they not have to move schools or have a long daily commute to school/friends/activities if you move 30 mins away?).

I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to expect your father to commit to making an unspecified (but presumably substantial?) financial contribution at some unknown future date, there are lots of factors that could intervene to make that not possible, his health could decline and his savings be needed to pay for care, he could lose capacity to manage his money (just because you know where the money is/account details doesn't mean you could just go in and take the money in the event of his death or illness, even if he gives you power of attorney you can't necessarily just grant yourself the money, it's more complicated than that), any number of things. So I think if your Dad wants you to be nearer him and a financial contribution from him is the only way to make that happen it needs to be an upfront gift from him now with no strings attached (anything else is just too messy and fraught with difficulties). If not then I think you need to tell him it's not happening.

What you do next is tough, would him moving to be near you be a better option? My Mum has recently moved to a really lovely modern sheltered housing/retirement complex with carers on site 24/7, a restaurant, cafe etc. You live independently in your own bright modern flat and it honestly doesn't feel institutional at all, more like a swanky apartment block or upmarket hotel. Obviously it's not cheap but she was able to buy a 1 bed flat outright after selling her previous house, or rental is an option too. You have to pay for any care or assistance (cleaning, laundry, meals etc) on top of your rent/purchase costs but council tax, bills and maintenance of the communal areas and gardens is included in the service charge so really straight forward to manage. If something similar was available near you would that be an option for your Dad?

I think also you need to set a level of visiting/help that's sustainable for you and really try to impress on your dad that he needs to be using his resources to help him manage outside of your visits and not simply just expecting you to drop everything and run to his summons. I know so many old people that are really resistant to having any outside assistance or care whatsoever, sometimes the money is used as an excuse (despite being easily able to afford it), sometimes they just don't want strangers in the house but really it all comes down to fear of losing their independence and wanting their family to 'look after' them which simply isn't always possible or the best way. Can you look at the reasons for your visits and which can be outsourced - shopping can be done online and delivered (some services I think will even bring in and unpack into the fridge/freezer for you if he can't manage himself), jobs - is this maintenance/cleaning/gardening? Age UK have a brilliant service available where they'll provide vetted cleaners/gardeners/handymen at a reasonable hourly rate which we used extensively for my mum before she moved to the retirement complex. Can you try and sell it to him that if he does this, then when you visit you can actually enjoy quality time together rather than running around doing jobs? You might also have to get a bit firmer with him, my mum got to a point where things like 'she'd lost the telly remote' or 'a lightbulb's gone out' would be reason to constitute an 'emergency visit' from me or my brother (both of us lived further away than you as well) and we had to start telling her it would need to wait for our next planned visit, she wasn't super happy and started grumbling a lot about 'uncaring children' and told us lots of convenient 'news' about how her friend Susan's children live 2 mins away and come round to her house 10 times a day or whatever but I had to be a bit hard-hearted and say 'that's lovely for Susan mum but we live in London' on repeat...

I'd also look into getting him a pendent/care line service so he can press the big red button and get help if he has a medical issue or any emergency out of hours, it goes through to a call centre who can triage and call emergency services if necessary, it's not really wise to rely fully on you when you may not be nearby and also if the worst case scenario (of a fall or whatever) he may not be able to make it to a phone...

[thesandwich]

Echo pp and suggest you get help in for him he can pay for.
Outsource as much as possible then you can focus on being family visitors not carers.
Do what only you can do.

[Charliesunnysky10]

Thanks so much for that. Really appreciate it. We really want to carry on helping dad it's just the travelling. Dad won't move out, the stress woukd be too much. Our eldest is at uni and youngest is actually at school right near him and gets a coach each day. It just frustrates me that he won't use the money where it's needed. He won't even pay privately for the op he so needs, he'd rather wait months on end and suffer, making us worry in the process. I do feel better getting it off my chest, and that you really heard me x

[NewspaperTaxis]

Excellent answers already so this won't be as good but, there are things to flag up here. How long has he really got? Maybe less than a decade, you never know, it may be more. Whether less or more, you can't have 'last' years having hassle with the family getting worn out over looking after him, it's no way to enjoy life in the present. That applies even if he's got a generous amount of time left, because there's more chance you will run out of puff.

Personally I'd have thought waiting for the NHS op is false economy and what's the point of having loads of money if you can't jump the queue but for some this is a political point.

However, if he's vigilant with his cash he better avoid getting overstretched and failing. A care home will be no less than a grand a week. Do the maths on that for five or six years or more. They'll be less to hand over to the family then, it's a drain on cash reserves. So is inheritance tax, in fact you might argue he could do that thing where he bequeathes it to his family with a 7 year gap so they avoid inheritance tax altogether or should I not mention that on a forum? Do get financial advice on this.

I agree with the whole outsourcing thing - get some regular help. A firm like 'Home Instead' comes highly recommended but is probably not local to you.

[veryjelly]

Could you rent out your house and rent a different place nearer to your dad?

I would be honest with him and say that the middle of the night call-outs and daily travel is killing you, and that you're desperate to find a solution.

[DarcyJack]

My dad doesn't believe he should go private even though he can easily afford it, because private medicine isn't for the likes of him-life long socialist bless him. He would dump his principles in a heartbeat if it came to paying for one of the kids or grandkids though! Could you not reverse this and say you are setting up the operation for him privately as you can't bear to see him suffer. Tell him he would do the same for you. Hopefully when it is all arranged he will feel he has to cough up! If only to prevent you from doing so.

[Hidinginstaircupboard]

There's a few posts with a wall of text so apologies if this has been said already as I've missed it.

To do an hour commute daily of an hour (+ also time helping your dad when there so it could be 2 hours or more a day) is a false economy and taking away time from your own family and other commitments you have (work/ your life, etc) You don't have endless time left with children at home, so that is a somewhat unreasonable expectation of your dad. Saving for GDCs future at the expense of precious family time now whilst they need it more.

It may be worth working out what is realistic, like 2 (or 3?) visits a week to dad on set days and explain to dad he needs to privately fund a personal assistant (PA) or general housekeeper type arrangement with a lovely person local to him, at £10-15/hour for the other days. He can make as flexible arrangements as he wants, or if it isn't urgent he can wait for the days you will be there.

It is very likely that you're spending almost as much in petrol (if most of the bigger things can be done on regular days you're there , so that the PA is only needed for an hour), than he's saving but he's not seeing that as he's not paying.

I wouldn't move house to a more expensive property to be near him if you don't feel it's a sensible stable financial decision. Also, he may not be able to guarantee to help you out financially later on if he ends up in care as he won't be able to do large gifts (deprivation of assets or he may lose capacity). There is so much that can be unexpected that can happen in this type of situation.

You sound lovely and supportive of your father. It is okay to say "we can do this, we will help you arrange ...(..)... when we can't be there"

[Charliesunnysky10]

Home Instead are local to him, but like many, he'd never allow strangers in his home, and I really WANT to continue. It's not a big hassle to me other than the commute. I cared for my mum, nana and grandad and really valued giving something back to them and making the most of those years. It's just as I say the distance. And he calls me out gor sometimes nothing, just reassurance and another body in the house. This is really what has brought things to a head. I don't mind responding to 'Just need someone there's type stuff, if I'm 5 mins down the road. But when it's an hour round trip, I'm getting picky with him on the phone , saying ' What do you need me for, Dad?', not 'Sure, ill jusy pop over. Be there in 5 or 10'. I coukd do this if he just was willing to part with some cash to support the move buy hes become so fearful of the future and determined to pass on the absolute maximum, even tjoigh he knows the chancellor will take a chunk, and while I'm more than happy to be his home help, even give up my job when he needs more than a couple of dsily visits (if im local by then), if he has complex medical needs he will need more trained help, wjich eill nerd to be paid for. I'd just rather he spent some cash on something useful. But I'm not cheeky enough to spell it out, and he is too cautious with his finances to offer it. I don't think he can see the need because he has no perspective.

We need the sale of our house AND a third more to move to a similar size place near my dad, so renting our own isn't an option unfortunately, but a good idea anyway - thank you.

Dad would go spare if I went behind his back and initiated a private op, but again, good suggestion. It's not his ethics that woukd hold him back, and definately not finances, it's the fear of them uncovering cancer. So he won't seek out the op, privately. He will drag this out and wait for the inevitable, but long awaited NHS op.

That sounds so negative, on my part. I just feel like whatever I do makes no difference, or causes bad feeling. I found myself being a bit short with him yesterday when he called me over, saying he was in a mess again. He was constipated and just wanted someone there. Much of it is attention, and I feel like I coud give this better if I live nearer.

[RB68]

OK I am on Parent 3 with this stuff.

We had one with significant cash but poor daily living. What I would look at is moving him to a flat or smaller place nearer you and start talking about that with him.

Strangers are soon friends when you see them - I got by this one with a shall we give it a go for the mornings, it helps ME out to know someone is coming in to get breakfast and do tea (and make sure they are up and dressed and no issues to sort) maybe waive a duster around etc. Start small. The sooner this is in place the better but if he has savings he will have to pay for it. It allows you to easily up and downscale care on a daily basis if necessary.

I would also look at getting a Financial LPA in place now - wouldn't bother with the health one - it makes little difference to the decision making and the way things are handled. The financial one can help you do small things for him that encourage confidence in you doing them. They do get stuck in their ways but it is possible to move them along slowly and the sooner started the more familiar they get with people and trust develops.

[JackieWeaverFever]

I would honestly just pay for the OP if I could
You need to sit him down and explain the realities and tell him you love him but he needs to get on board for you as well as himself.

[Hidinginstaircupboard]

Please stop thinking about trying to move to a more expensive property.

You don't need to use an agency. You can employ one person or two that will become familiar to him as PAs. It's his choice but you can do twice a week or whatever your comfort zone is... what he decides, as can clearly afford it, is up to him. He is promising money as inheritance to his GDCs that they may never see (his money may all end up going on care home fees) and won't benefit them now when they and you are young and have a right to enjoy your family lives.

Please please set boundaries and stop trying to tie yourself in knots , listen to your partner and what your children want. This is your life not your dads, your dad has other options

[NewspaperTaxis]

@RB68

OK I am on Parent 3 with this stuff.

We had one with significant cash but poor daily living. What I would look at is moving him to a flat or smaller place nearer you and start talking about that with him.

Strangers are soon friends when you see them - I got by this one with a shall we give it a go for the mornings, it helps ME out to know someone is coming in to get breakfast and do tea (and make sure they are up and dressed and no issues to sort) maybe waive a duster around etc. Start small. The sooner this is in place the better but if he has savings he will have to pay for it. It allows you to easily up and downscale care on a daily basis if necessary.

I would also look at getting a Financial LPA in place now - wouldn't bother with the health one - it makes little difference to the decision making and the way things are handled. The financial one can help you do small things for him that encourage confidence in you doing them. They do get stuck in their ways but it is possible to move them along slowly and the sooner started the more familiar they get with people and trust develops.

You are kidding about not getting the LPA in Health, right?

If there's one thing I regret not doing re my Mum's care in seven care homes over six years, it was that we neglected to get LPA in Health and Welfare (we had it in Finance only). Without it, you are simply not the decision maker for your parent's care once they are deemed to have lost mental capacity. The State is - and it does actually profit from your parent's death. You won't even be allowed to look at the medical notes.

[Charliesunnysky10]

Thank you for the advice. Lots to think about, but I feel better informed now x

[Hidinginstaircupboard]

Charlie... good luck

Thinking of you . Remember you can only do what you can do and you shouldn't be sacrificing your children's well-being nor yours for a promise or something you never signed up for nor may be available later on. It is absolutely ok to draw up boundaries and say "this is what I can do" "will help you privately arrange more support if you want that (he pays not you)"

[Charliesunnysky10]

It's just that I want to be doing it...he's my last older family member and I'm more than willing. But he won't support us in a move closer. We aren't asking for cash, just his blessing. And he won't see that this is unreasonable. I don't think the answer is getting help in, because he refuses and I want to help him anyway. I'm so frustrated that he won't use the money where it's needed - we'd get a mortgage, this is just a backstop in case we lost our jobs, but when he warned us against moving, he actually said 'Don't risk it. You could lose it all and end up in rented accommodation because I can't help'. And yet I know because he's given me all his financial stuff to keep 'in case he drops dead' (his words), that he has over half a million in investment trusts.
Yet I'm spending 30mins each way travelling, when there's a house we looked at further up the road that's 2 m8ns away, that would allow me to be on site in minutes, but he's become so fearful of the future that he's squirrelling away funds that could make all our lives better. But this is his money and not mine. And when it does become mine I won't need to move because he'll be gone and the thought of that makes me as sad as the fact I'm even thinking it. I don't want to hand over care of him to anyone else, but I don't want to be narky with him when I see him, that he's made me travel.

[Grinch48]

Personally I would have it out with him
Put out exactly what you would like rather than hinting
Reduce the amount of time you visit to every other day
That’s more than enough for someone with little or no care and mobility needs
Explain you can’t visit every day it’s to knackering and you will only be visiting every other day . In the meantime on the days you don’t visit video call him 😂
Often it’s a case of because your dad’s retired and has nothing to do all day he probably assumes that your the same even though he knows that’s not the case
My dad tried this with me and my husband as we are both self employed so he thinks we can just drop stuff to do stuff for him
We only live 2 mins drive away and we will visit most days but I have no feeling of guilt if not visiting if I am busy

[Charliesunnysky10]

That makes absolute sense and thank you. I think because I've known my dad like a billion years I think it's better for him to come to his own conclusion rather than spelling it out and having him think me rude and cheeky.
But he's become too insular to see, and my passive aggressive eye rolls when he says he doesn't want the op any earlier and the sighs when he says 'Not a good day, can you or Andy come over?' is nor working I just worry he'll simply not call us again, because I've been rude, demanding money for a house nearby particularly during sn unsettled financial period and 30 minutes is hardly the other side of the world - that's how he'll see it.

[MereDintofPandiculation]

he probably assumes that your the same even though he knows that’s not the case Very true - I have to actively remind myself that friends and family are not free agents during the week.

I had to be quite firm with my Dad "I can't come and deal with that today but I can come tomorrow" "Sorry, I can't discuss this now, I need to go - write down the main points and we can discuss it next time".

I notice DS2 phones me on his walk to the station. It may be because that's when he's free to phone, but I'm very alert to the possibility it's because it gives him an excuse to terminate the call "got to go, the train's just coming". It's not much fun being left to come to your own conclusion.

[RainingBatsAndFrogs]

I feel your pain, OP.

My parents are the same. ‘This house will be yours’..... except there is a very good chance it will not because of potential care fees.

Wouldn’t accept help until they simply could not manage without.

Your DH is right to be wary. My Dad had prostate issues 20 years ago and is now alive but very in need of expensive care at almost 90. The money is dwindling.

Moving closer will help for routine support, but what when you go on hol? What if / when he becomes seriously unable to cope?

I would be a little bit cruel to be kind: suddenly be unable to answer a call for help. Or be ‘away from home’ after March 29th and very delayed. Not when there is a threat to life or limb, of course.

[RainingBatsAndFrogs]

OP, the opening up of lockdown gives a good opportunity for a proper talk. Don’t get into a habit of hunting and eye rolling.

Tell him that there is a practical issue that needs solving: that with things opening up you will be less available at short notice, and the long round trips are taking x hours out of your working week which just isn’t possible for you to to do.

[Charliesunnysky10]

@MereDintofPandiculation

he probably assumes that your the same even though he knows that’s not the case Very true - I have to actively remind myself that friends and family are not free agents during the week.

I had to be quite firm with my Dad "I can't come and deal with that today but I can come tomorrow" "Sorry, I can't discuss this now, I need to go - write down the main points and we can discuss it next time".

I notice DS2 phones me on his walk to the station. It may be because that's when he's free to phone, but I'm very alert to the possibility it's because it gives him an excuse to terminate the call "got to go, the train's just coming". It's not much fun being left to come to your own conclusion.

Gosh that never occurred to me. This has really given me a wake up call, so thank you. I can think of a few occasions I could use train reason! I think it's lovely you have that regular contact with DS2. I have to book a slot with my son at Uni.

I think I'd rather slide down a barbed wire banister than tell me dad I've no time to speak. He gets a bit uppity if I put him on speakerphone while I dish up the kids' tea.

I bet 'Dad, hand over a quarter of your wealth so I can buy the house on your street or I won't visit you as often' would grab his attention, but when I can't pluck up the courage to take him to task over asking the GP if they can write to the consultant listing all the call outs and emergencies relating to his catheter, I'm not likely to be brave enough to spill my thoughts on moving closer!

[Charliesunnysky10]

Quick update....I was round most of today, doing some jobs and I mentioned when it came up about his health, that he needn't worry...I'll always be here but it would be easier if we lived closer and he said 'it's up to you, I can't help you financially though, I need my money secure in the investments to sleep at night'. I mentioned that care is expensive and it will all be gone and it would make more sense to invest in a place we can live close to him and he said he knows it's logical but he can't part with any of it to help us.

To be fair, he will probably need it - as you can folks have mentioned, nursing care is expensive and I'm not looking to spend all his cash so he has none to pay for care. If he has the money, it should go towards paying for him to be cared for in his home. I'm just really sad that I can't do any more.

But relieved we've had the conversation. I wouldn't have had the courage of my convictions and the info to tackle it without your help x

[RainingBatsAndFrogs]

Look: if he ‘can’t’ Help you move closer he also can’t expect you to be there at a moment’s notice whenever he needs you.

This could go on for another 15 years.

[Charliesunnysky10]

But that's just it, Bats. He does expect it, whether he should or he shouldn't. I'm his only child and he's my last blood relative. We're all we have left. I think what titched me off the most was him going on about the family progressing when I'm spending more time being pulled from pillar to post. However, my hubby says that convo might sit in his mind and at a later date he might relent. And that gives me hope cos I'm that way inclined. Experience tells me this miserly, self absorbed behaviour gets only worse as we age. But I'm not giving up!

[Doveyouknow]

I think your dad has been clear he isn't willing to support you moving closer (for whatever reason) and you cannot currently afford to move without his help / support. It may be far more logical for you to care for him as you have done for others. However, the distance means you can't. So you need to consider the alternatives. So consider what you can do and explain to him what is possible and think about how the gaps might be filled in e.g. cleaner, home help etc or him just doing more. I get it's not your choice of how you would like to care for him and it is disappointing but there is nothing you can do to change it at the moment.