to think my neighbours are being ridiculous.(107 Posts)
a few months ago my adjoining neighbour put up half a fence between our two gardens.
its half a fence. its his boundary so i have left him to it, although i did tell him that we were going to be completely revamping out garden and wall and i would have done the fence - but it is his boundary so thats fine. i thought.
now we are having our drive block paved and my front garden landscaped and a new fence up.
neighbours have suddenly decided that they have put their fence up in the wrong place and that the boundary is in our favour by about 6 inches.
they have gone and complained to my builders that they block paved up to their fence when their fence is in the wrong place.....
the point is they fucking well put the fence there!!! not me! i couldnt give a toss if they want another 6 inches of garden - they are welcome to it but now it means that my paving stops short of the fence and looks bloody stupid.....
how should i broach this?
they are inconsiderate bastards at best - when i begin any work i always let the neighbours know out of courtesy - they have just spent the last 5 weeks banging and drilling having a new kitchen fitted (yes - 5 weeks!!! to fit a kitchen!!!) and i work shifts - including nights. they dont give a shit.
im actually really angry about all this but i have to live adjoining them and dont want to start a ridiculous neighbour dispute....
my garden is costing alot of money - and their stupidity is ruining the finish. they say they are moving the fence - but when??? after tomorrow my garden will be finished - they have had plenty of time to move it if they wanted to.
im actually seething inwardly.
Vicar, are you in Norwich? Because we are having to listen to massive issues with various neighbours over their bloody fence, their bloody kitchen, the other neighbours bloody fence, the other neighbours bloody fence, the mad bunch of nutters in the flats who are horrible and aggressive...
They're all being complete bastards and arguing lots. I just want to pinch their noses and tell them to stop being such twats.
You said that you would have replaced the fence yourself anyway as part of your landscaping.
So finish the paving where he says the boundary is and put up your own
fucking huge naice fence.
Definitely worth a check of the land registry to find out where the boundary actually is before you decide whether or not to have the builders remove the 6" in question. Just letting him get on & do is sadly unlikely to actually be stress-free & letting him annexe bits of your garden could set a really bad precedent for future
I'd check the land registry tomorrow then and see if he's right or not about the boundary before making any decisions.
I would check your deeds.
How old is your house? The newer the house the more likely the deeds will be clearer as to where the boundary should be.
not in Norwich.
how do i check with land registry where the boundary is then?
There should be plans with your house deeds.
you will end up having to pay for surveys,
if there is anyway you can work this out amicable do so, or you will end up spending a lot of money.
As a temporary measure, to keep you new garden looking nice and tidy, you could put some decorative gravel down between the edge of your block paving and the fence.
Do you think this is garden envy and an attempt to be petty and spiteful and take something away from you?
There are people like that.
i agree - get the deeds. Find out if they are right. Take them a copy and say look, this is the actual situation, please don't bother me again with this.
or you could have a nice little border with some flowers in or something.
There is nothing to stop you putting a fence (ie 1 inch) within your own boundary. Which is what you should have done in the first place. You certainly have no right to be block paving 6 inches into their land.
the point is that
A) its debatable as to whether it is their land
B) they put the fence up!!!!!! NOT me. i have gone up to the fence they erected!
they have left a note on the wall for the builders - not even the courtesy to speak to me!! (but i went round last night - thought one of us should be the grown up!)
i wont tell you what the builders said about the note....
he wants me to pay for a corner post now - the builders have already bought the fencing so its tough. If he had asked me earlier id have done it.
he is welcome to his 6 inches. he clearly needs it! and im not about to start world war 3 over something so petty.
Quickly do a check online with land registry as to where your boundaries lie - then you know where you stand!
here an idea of how hard it can be to determine where a boundary is
the land registry can only give you an idea, certainly to be accurate requires a detailed survey, once you get into dispute your house is unsaleable until resolved,
1. The plan you are relying on is almost certainly not going to be suitable to take measurements from.
If the plans have dimensions then surely these are OK to use ?
Not necessarily. Assuming you are referring to figured dimensions, as opposed to scaling off the plan, any one or more of the following (as well as other things) may apply:
(a) The measurements may not have been taken accurately. The effect will be different according to exactly what was measured.
(b) A plan showing figured dimensions and insufficient fixed points only tells part of the story. To take a simple example to emphasise the point: Imagine a large field with a building right in the middle of it. The intention is to sell a four sided plot of land with the opposite sides being of equal length and one of the boundaries is to be one of the walls of the building. A plan is drawn showing only the building and the plot. The dimensions of each side of the plot are indicated, but there is no further information. You may think you know where the land is, but you only know where one side is, because there are an infinite number of positions in which the other three sides can be placed. What you need to know is the angles or the precise position of the corners opposite the wall by showing their distance from a fixed point such as the corner of the field.
We can take this a stage further. Let's assume that a plan was drawn up showing everything that was needed so that a surveyor with the plan in his hand can accurately plot the land on the ground. A house is built in the middle of the plot, but when fences are put up on the three open sides they are not put up in the correct position, but each one is of the length shown on the plan. This leaves us with a nicely drawn plan and three boundaries that do not correspond with the plan. We fast forward fifty years. There is a boundary dispute. A surveyor measures up and finds the discrepancy. By this time the history is forgotten. What is not known is whether the fences were put up and then the plot inaccurately measured, or the plot measured and then the fences inaccurately sited. The plan now has limited value in determining the position of the fenced boundaries mainly because after the lapse of time the fences have come to represent the boundaries. Of course if the fences had been erected in the correct position the plan would be of immense value as it would confirm that the fences were in the right place. The plan would also have been of value fifty years ago if a surveyor had been on site to supervise the positioning of the fences.
(c) You may not know if the measurements were taken on the ground or in the air. The steeper the gradient of the land and the longer the distance measured, the more critical this is.
(d) Many conveyance plans are "as we meant to build it" and not "as we in fact built it".
(e) If your land is registered it is the title plan that shows what you own and these rarely have figured dimensions on them. Any plan attached to a pre-registration deed is no longer part of the title to your land. The register is the title and replaces the "old deeds". Measuring from the figured dimensions of a pre-registration deed is a futile exercise. In fact, if a plan included in the deeds submitted with an application for first registration does not quite coincide with the OS plan the LR "corrects" the position and registers the property according to the OS plan, and not the plan on the deeds.
2. You probably don't know how to measure land properly.
So, how would you go about measuring land 'properly' ?
No idea as I am not a surveyor. I am not saying that a non-professional cannot measure his property and come up with the correct figures, especially if the land is flat. However, I doubt a person can take measurements in the air without at least some training.
3. If you start to measure your boundaries you will start to believe things you have no business believing, for example that you know exactly where your boundaries are.
Not necessarily if its done properly, with care and accuracy then most people should be able to manage it.
The sort of thing that can happen is this:
(a) You are scaling from a plan that is a copy and copies are rarely to scale.
(b) The approximate scale is 1:1250 and this is difficult to scale from accurately.
(c) The distances you scale from the plan are distances in the air, but you assume that they are distances on the ground.
(d) You want to measure from the back of the house to the rear fence. You do not realise that the rear of the house has been extended and that the extension is not shown on the plan you have scaled from.
(e) If you want your garden to be longer you may, without necessarily intending to deceive, measure it longer. You will make little allowances that will be in your favour.
You can see how easy it is to come to believe something you should not believe. And all the measuring may be a waste of time because even if your measurements are accurate, the boundary may have moved anyway!
6. Disputes over boundaries enrich lawyers and surveyors - you don't want to do that as they are already rich enough.
.....and a satisfactory ending to a dispute makes you feel really good and might well be worth the toil & trouble.
In my experience in practice boundary disputes rarely end satisfactorily. They are most likely to end satisfactorily if the encroachment is recent and substantial. The problem that lawyers have with boundary disputes is that there is little law in them and few conclusive documents to rely on. The problem with boundary disputes that surveyors have is that they are usually being asked to determine the position of a line without sufficient information.
I agree the first place to start is with the land registry to check what information they have on the boundary.
As 'quoteunquote' states there is probably no definitive way to tell for certain as there are a number of factors to consider, such as age of the property and when the plans were drawn etc.
However, having said that if the information is as vague as it sounds it might be then you have the situation that presumably HIS information is just as vague (presuming he bothered to check at all).
In which case could the fact that the boundaries cannot be adequately established, be pointed out to him and a compromise reached.
IE your block paving stops, either halfway between the disputed area or just short of it and you either erect your own fence or, as one of the posts suggests gravel the strip (which would aid drainage in any case) and place pots on it which, in the event the neighbor does decide to move the fence, can be easily moved. This might be the better option as block paving needs to be edged to contain the blocks and paving right up to edge at this stage may mean you have to have that edge re-laid if it does need to be moved.
As you say any man who fights that hard for 6 inches definitely feels he has something to prove. (even if it is only to prove him right to his wife).
Hope you get it resolved and try not to let it worry you.
quoteunquote has it I'm afraid. I would emphasise the point that the Land Reg will always IME shy away from giving a ruling on boundaries. They will say, rightly, that their plans are for illustrative purposes only and will bounce any legal questions back to a lawyer.
One thing I would say about pre registration plans, and I think this is different to what quoteunquote is saying, I have found them to be very very useful indeed as indicators of the intention of the builder or developer. In the pre-litigation stages at least, they can be a good negotiating tool ie if you have a sympathetic plan that proves your argument, that will weigh quite heavily in any negotiations.
As for boundary litigation, in my world (property lawyer), these two words should never ever go together! Litigation is bad enough (and I was a litigation lawyer for 15 years too), but legal action over a boundary is, IMO, the worst litigation of all, money/health/sanity draining and rarely with a satisfactory outcome.
Where does that leave you Vicar? If you haven't already, I would put the onus back on him to prove the 6 inches. How does he know, and where is the evidence, that it is his?
Having said all that, I appreciate that you can't be arsed, and actually, it may be non-legal, but to be honest I think that's the best approach There's a certain kind of
weirdo/loser/saddo person who obsesses over inches <ahem> and it could be in danger of sapping all your energy.
Can you tell him you will get the block paving removed if he guarantees he will move the fence on the same day so you are not left with a gap?
If he refuses say that unfortunately you can't then have the paving removed but will be happy to allow him to hire someone to remove it if and when he moves his fence?
You can have a survey done, property lines marked, and then you KNOW.
If you call land registry they will send (if you pay) for a scaled drawing which will tell you exactly where the boundary should be. You'll need a scale ruler. There is nothing to say that the boundary is exactly in-between your 2 houses (2.5 brick from each house etc). Mine isn't.
I called land registry when our neighbours where disputing our fence. The lady on the phone was really helpful and measure the plans for me over the phone (even though she said she shouldn't really). She also said tho that when it come to replacing an existing fence that they class the one coming down as the boundary give or take.
Your neighbour can't make you move your block paving. Tell him that you believe the boundary to be where the fence is etc. If he disputes this then can he please provide the appropriate evidence ie the scaled drawings that land registry hold - obviously said in the nicest possible way
you know though i just cant be bothered to argue - there was no fence there at all before he erected it - a few months ago. i just presumed he put his own bloody fence up where he thought his was - now he says he didnt (which begs the question - WHY!!!??? - he hasnt got a bloody clue where his house ends and mine starts. ive gone alone and looked at all the other houses and they have the fence where he says it should be so i dont see the problem in letting him have his 6 inches - anyway my builders have taken up the block paving now but i do have a ridiculous gap which i will need to fill with aggregate of some sort until he decides to move his fence.
which will be never probably.
i dont mind him moving it - but he assumed his boundary was where i assumed it was - so i dont get the snotty note taped to the wall or the weirdness.
move the fence. job done.
wonder how long it will take him....fence is a bloody mess anyway - not even in straight line and one panel missing completely - i think they are bonkers.
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<Totally off topic>
Are you back at work now then Vicar?
<equally off topic>
not yet mamma but i think ill be back soon - got another occy health appt in 2 weeks - thats when i lay out what i need to return and they yay or nay it.
if its a nay ill be leaving. ive got 3 weeks left on my sick note.
ive applied for other jobs (out of police) just in case. had a follow up appt for my hernia today and have another in 3 months to discuss surgery.
the depression is a bit odd and while ive been fine the last few weeks today i felt low and weepy....im not looking forward to going back in truth. i dont think i deal with stress terribly well in this capacity - still dealing with DS, DD, everything else and cant do that and work 6 days a week, 56+ hours a week alone and feeling in danger all the time - its just not worth it. so im not back yet and it very much depends on how im received back as to whether ill be staying or not.
Feeling your pain! What is it that makes people so unreasonable?!
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