Flexible working rejected - Help - what to do next

[climbingeverest]

Hi All flexible working Mn's,

I requested to return to work 4 days a week, with one day working from home for 3 months only, until my son was a year old in January. He was born premature, and feel that a day extra with him, would benefit him. Thereafter, I requested that I would return to work 5 days a week, with one day working from home.
I've just had this request rejected, on grounds that the team structure does not allow, it will be difficult for cover purposes etc.. and they have come up with 3 days in the office, and 2 days working from home for the first 3 months, thereafter 4 days in the office, and one day working from home. After 6 months, they want me to return to work full time.
Besided the cost of childcare for an extra day, so we're looking at £200 a month, just think this is unfair! They have recently changed their policies, with all the current climate etc, and the business need etc.. doesn't allow it...all HR crap. I feel that it's unfair, as there are mothers already within the company that returned to work a few months ago, and work 3 days a week(obviously with a pay cut). And that there is another woman within the team that has within her contract that she can work 2 days from home to be there to pick up her son from school(she has a fit and healthy 9 year old son!)and she has been doing this for the past 3 years.
All I'm asking for is 3 months of working 4 days a week (with one of these days working from home), and one day to have quality time with my little boy.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[climbingeverest]

i know my work is compromising here, but I feel I should at least put in an appeal, and explain my case.
I don't like taking things just lying down. I know it may be turned down, but fighting for my family time, is very important to me.

[Libra1975]

climbingeverest I feel for you as I had to choose my nursery days before I put in the application for flexible working due to the long waiting list at the nursery and now all I can do is cross my fingers but there have been some great ideas here and you really can't work at home whilst looking after a baby. Good Luck.

[ceebee74]

I echo what others have said on here that you really can't work from home and look after your child at the same time - or at least you wouldn't get anywhere near the amount of work done (8 hours?) that you would if you were in the office which is clearly unfair on your employers.

3 months is approx 12 weeks so if you and your DH took alternate Fridays off as holidays, it would only be 6 days each - could that really not be arranged?

I totally understand and am sympathetic to your predicament btw - maybe a way forward is to arrange a meeting with your manager/HR to explain how you now find yourself without childcare and what options are available for you.

[climbingeverest]

yes, I should do that, and see what they say. I haven't replied back yet, as I wanted to do it in a professional manner, without ranting and raving or being angry.

[climbingeverest]

ceebee, would like to do that, but the problem is, they want me to work 5 days a week, because of the business need, and difficult for cover purposes, if another person was off on holiday or off sick, if i wasn't there

[dilbertina]

I "worked from home" one day a week whilst also looking after dc1 some years ago. From experience I can say I neither felt it was "quality" time with dc nor that I was doing a good job. Was actually fairly relieved when boss finally put foot down and we worked out a new way forward after dc2! Was nice to still get full-time pay, but is nicer still to relax with children fully.

[flowerybeanbag]

Few points

In terms of procedure, they must arrange a meeting to discuss it within 28 days of your application. They must give a decision within 14 days of that. Various other procedural things as well. You can appeal if they didn't follow the procedure, but that won't change the decision, it will just make them re-do it according to the proper procedure. If they still refuse to follow the procedure you could take them to a tribunal but a tribunal has no power to decide whether an application should be agreed or not, just to ensure the procedure is followed.

In terms of parental leave, that should be taken in blocks of a week, needs to be requested in advance and can be postponed by the employer if it's not convenient for up to 6 months. So parental leave for one day a week wouldn't be an option, but taking a block now might be. Of course it would be unpaid, but you wouldn't be paying childcare costs.

Working at home with a child would be an absolutely not straightaway for the simple reason that I am paying you to work for me 8 hours a day, and you can't do that and look after a child. You just can't. Working from home is fine, but in terms of how much work you get done and how much attention you are able to pay to your workload, it should be no different from working in the office. However good your baby is, he is not going to sit quietly for 8 hours and not disturb you.

If you want more time with your son, which is understandable, you need to go part time. It's a problem all of us face if we have children, how much time we want to/can afford to spend with them balanced against how much money we need to earn/time we need to spend working. Being a working parent is expensive, it's as simple as that, but it's not fair on your employer or your colleagues to try and be a parent and work simultaneously.

Appeal their decision if you want to. If you do, mention the procedural issues as well but focus on getting a decision that suits you all. Do not include working at home while looking after your baby in any proposal you might make. Propose a job share, or propose 3 or 4 days a week or whatever you think might work. I agree with whoever it was that said have a chat with HR to explore your options.

Have a look at working families website, there is a good online guide to flexible working and a factsheet, you can explore various options and get help building a case for what you want.

[RibenaBerry]

I just have one point to add to Flowery - by all means appeal on grounds of procedure and the slow response may well be in breach of the internal company procedures on flexible working requests. However, to claim at tribunal about a defect in the statutory rules:

1. Your flexible working request would need to have been made in the very specific format under the legislation. This involves including specific bits of information. If you did your request as a more informal email, it might not qualify as a formal request and they might not be in breach of procedures. In that circumstance, you would need to do the process again before complaining that they had breached the rules.

1. You need to have made a qualifying request under the rules. A flexible working request needs to be one for a permanent change. Since, as I understand it, yours was all about temporary changes, there is a chance that you couldn't claim about procedure to a tribunal anyway, as it wasn't a qualifying request.

This doesn't mean you have no rights. There are claims like sex discrimination which are not about the letter of the law on flexible working rules, but that all comes back to the working/parenting point everyone has raised above and whether the employer was behaving reasonably in turning down your request.

Also, you seem really cross that other mothers have this arrangment, but you have specifically referred to a mother who has a nine year old son in school and who works from home to be able to pick him up and drop him off. Now, I'm not sure what she does after 3:30 (or whatever), but it does sound like she has the house to herself for most of the day to work un-interupted. That is a bit different, no?

[climbingeverest]

thk you Flowery and Ribena for your advice. I'm not cross on this specifically, but that other mothers have arranged flexible working on a temporary basis this year, and then increased their hours over the year. Just because the system is changing, I unfortunately have to bare the consequences of this.

Flowery, nothing was discussed within 28days. I did submit my request formally. Management even stated that HR did not know what they were doing, because the policies were changing. "you know how HR are" were the managers exact words/

[flowerybeanbag]

What do you think you will do then climbing? Will you appeal? If so, I would strongly advise you consider carefully offering a different compromise rather than simply appealing the decision of the first request. The decision is unlikely to get reversed and I do think your best chance of getting a decent flexible working arrangement that allows you to work and spend time with your DS is having a discussion with HR and probably your manager as well about different options.

[climbingeverest]

thks Flowery. I understand there are needs of the business as well as my own. There is just no time at all, as I go back to work next week. I will have to speak to HR, and hopefully there will be a compromise where we both meet in the middle.
I know you all won't like this, but I was thinking if I can just get care for my son for 4 hrs that one day, I could do my work during those hours, and have my son for the rest of the day. Or that I propose that I have one day off fortnightly. I am willing to take a paycut for 3 months if necessary, to do 4 days a week.
I know what you are all saying, and that it's unfair to the employer, and that's how things go when we're working mums..etc....
but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for 3 months, even just a few extra hours to spend with my son. Like all your little ones' I'm sure, my son is so precious to me, and he was born 10 weeks prematurely, and was in hospital for a while. so any extra time is important.

[flowerybeanbag]

Nobody thinks you are unreasonable to want extra hours to spend with your son. All our DCs are precious, and many on here have had children in hospital or similar difficult circumstances. People just don't think it's reasonable of you to expect your employer to pay you during that extra time you are spending with him.

I think your idea of working a half day is a good idea, (obviously assuming you would only be expecting to be paid for the 4 hours you are working...), and might be a good compromise, as would one day off fortnightly. They are both options you can discuss.

[climbingeverest]

I'm glad you think my idea's are good. I have been thinking the whole day, of how I can make things work, and where we can compromise.

No, I don't expect to get paid the whole day, but the role I do could let me just be at the end of a phone for the other 4 hrs.

I suppose, as I have mentioned before, my biggest grudge is that I know so many mothers in the company that had their flexible time approved, i.e.
doing 3 days a week for 4 months, then increasing it to 4 days a week after 4 months, and then 5 days a week after the next 4 months, all with working from home 1 day a week. And there were not always job shares.etc..

[NorthernLurker]

It's great that you are thinking of soultions but you have to let go of this idea about it being unfair. If you nurse a sense of injustice the ONLY thing it will do is make it harder for you to adapt to being back at work.

[AtheneNoctua]

Something else I have noticed in your posts is that it seems you (and not necessarily the baby) has a burning desire to spend more time with him. I think iyou should step back and ask yourself who wants you to stay home more. You? The baby? Your DH?

Incidentally I have really had to bite my tongue about how this childcare issue is all yours and not your DH's because "he is basically the breadwinner here, and pays the mortgage. " I personally don't stand for such Victorian attitudes in my house. I do do more of the childcare than DH. We both work full time equally demanding jobs. He works away during the week. So, when he is home, he picks up more of the house work. Seems to balance out in the end. Surely there is something your DH can give in on. Like he could do all the drop offs and you could do the pick-ups or vice versa.

How long has your maternity leave been? Have you used all 12 months?

[climbingeverest]

I want to spend more time with my lo. Wouldn't you? it was only 3 months i asked for. and I've tried to think of ways I can compromise with the company's proposal.

Especially if working hours are usually 8-6.
My DH and I have agreed that he will be doing majority of the drop offs and pick ups, as he has a car, and we will work it out, should either of us have to work late.

I already used 10months of my maternity leave, and then used annual leave for financial reasons. so. cannot extend my maternity leave now. As I've mentioned before, varied flexible working hours/days were normally given to previous mother employees, and I assumed they would have no problem giving this to me too. And in conversations a few months back, my boss said, that he "thinks" that it could be accommodated, but wasn't sure.

Anyway, that's already done, I can't undo the past, or what leave I've taken etc... I have to focus on the future, of how the company and I can come to some sort of compromise. So will be speaking to HR next week. And as there is no time, have had to put in leave for one day next week so long, which is yet to be approved.

[squiffy]

climbingeverest you are getting yourself in a tizzy about all of this and need to take a step back.

You have TWO very separate issues which you are dealing with as if they were one.

1. You are returning to work before you feel you are ready, and do not have a choice in this.
   
   This issue is your biggest one and is NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR EMPLOYER.
   
   
2. You feel you are being unfairly treated because you have not been given the same amount of flexibility as others in your organisation.
   
   With regard to (1) you should look at some of the threads on the 'going back to work' section. Juggling work and home is much much tougher than peple envisage and you will see lots of advice from other about how to deal with it. The deal you have had in terms of premature baby etc are a tough hand, but that does not entitle you to any get out of jail free cards, I'm afraid.
   
   With regard to (2) this stuff happens and is a result of the way that the law is structured. The law is designed to try to set a line between what employers need and what employees need. If every member of staff was entitled to the same rights as each other, then in most companies the rights would have to be scaled back to the barest minimum, becasue otherwise the employer would struggle to get the staff in when needed. The law is worded quite deliberately to ensure that the rule of precedence does not determine entitlement. Otherwise a hospital might let one nurse work days only and then find that 80% of staff demand to work days only. It can't work, so you simply have to treat each individual uniquely in terms of their contribution and the employers business needs. I suspect that HR probably feel really bad because they have been over-generous in the past and can't do the same to everybody. It's a bummer that it is you who have suffered, but at least your company seems to be trying to offer some flexibility (believe me, that is not the standard). I think your best approach when speaking to them is definately not to give them a hard time at all, but to thank them for doing their best to work something out, and ask if they can possibly stretch that little bit further for the next 6 months - eg they give you one day a week unpaid vacation for 6 months before reverting to normal vacation calandar.
   
   Your problems with (1) are clouding your judgement of (2). Your company may not have followed the timetable properly, but they are not treatign you badly (from what you have said). And giving them a hard tiem might be counter-productive. People work better when praised for what they do right and not criticised for what they do wrong (same as kids)

[AtheneNoctua]

Fantastic post, Squiffy.

Further to this, I actually feel that 10 months at home with your baby is a really long time. I have two kids. With the first one I went back to work full time when she was 4 weeks old because I was working contract and needed the money and didn't get squat for maternity leave. With the seond one I stayed home for 3 months. I would have like longer with both, but could not afford it. So, I went back to work. Lots of people have to do this.

However, Squiffy is right that you are really struggling with facing this reality.

There is someone at my husbands work who is about to return after having had her first baby. She requested to work from home every afternoon but said the baby would be in a nursery. The request was declined.

Another guy at his work had a baby recently. Shortly after it was born it was diagnosed with a muscular disease and they have been told that the baby will die in the next few months. They had to explain this to their two year old.

In the greater scheme of things, having one's flexible working request rejected is just not that big of deal. I'm sorry if you think this is harsh... but these six months will fly by and then it won't matter any more.

[ceebee74]

I have to agree with Squiffy's post that maybe your emotions are affecting your ability to deal with your employers.

I went back to work after 7 months and I was absolutely dreading it - I would have done anything to not go back (including requesting voluntary redundancy which I didn't get!). In hindsight, this was mainly for me as I had grown to love the life of getting up later than I would do, pottering round at home etc - not for DS. Once I returned to work, I actually enjoyed the routine again and DS loved, and still does, love nursery and after 12 months I actually upped my working days from 3 to 4.

As Squiffy said, yes you have had a tough time with DS - but so have other people. My DS had to have a life-saving operation at 8 weeks old which was quite literally the worst thing that I have ever been through but I wouldn't have ever dreamt of using that as an excuse to extend my leave etc.

Unfortunately the practicalities of life have a habit of intruding on what we want!

[climbingeverest]

Just to give you guys an update, as it's been my first week back at work. My boss has allowed me to work from home with my child(if I want my child with me, and deal with work around my child, as long as the work is done) 3 days a week for the first 6 months, and then back full time after 6 months. And has also offered an extra paid one day leave, once a month!! What a success!! After all my grievances, and I thought those mn's that said my request was unreasonable. it shows, if you don't appeal and ask, you don't get. I'm so happy now!

[RibenaBerry]

Well done Climbing. You must be very pleased.

In terms of working with your child at home, I am pleased for you that your employer agreed it, but I don't think it changes the comments Flowery and I made about the principles and how 99% of employers would respond. You have been really lucky to have such a flexible employer, and enjoy the new arrangements.

[flowerybeanbag]

Climbing congratulations, glad you've got something sorted that suits you.

Ribena is right, my comments still stand and this arrangement isn't one I'd personally approve, but if the viewpoints put across on this thread help make you extra-determined to make sure it works, that can only be a good thing.

[climbingeverest]

thks for your help Flowery and Ribena. I will definitely keep your comments in mind. It's only a temporary basis, and I've been very lucky. Talking to other mums in the company, it seems that the majority have been given permission to work with their children at home with them. My company strongly believe in work/Family life balance. I was just unfortunate to come across a new boss, that hasn't been in the company very long.