Grievance settlement and without prejudice meeting

[livingnight]

Hi all,

Been with my company about a year. Had to raise grievance due to discrimination due to disability, and victimisation due to bullying and harassment because I whistleblew (could only have come from me), been removed from work area, isolated, and training that had been previously agreed prior to grievance removed. This is all documented and I have a vast amount of proof including SAR evidence that is pretty damming and I have the unions support.

Grievance investigation is being dragged out and the company seemed a little shocked that I had lodged with Acas (I think they thought I would time out) before they even started investigating.

Got an asked to attend a call via HR last week about "without prejudice" call, union joined and was offered 3 months notice period and small non taxable figure for me to "settle". Union said this was pretty much their standard first offer.

Union keeps asking how much I want, so does HR (although hr rep he said that he didn't know the details of the grievance) and said Acas only gave v v limited details.

I don't know what's reasonable. I work in a fairly specialised area, in a specialised role and obviously finding a new role would be a nightmare.

Any advice or guidance ?

I have never whilstblown or faced anything like this before. I'm now feeling like I'm going slightly mad given the really low offer (which hr man seemed to imply I should bite my hand off)

Sensible people of MN help me. Any experiences advice would be great. I have no idea tbh

[Platedshoes]

It's usually based on loss of earnings, so 3/6 months pay based on how long it's likely to take to get another equivalent job. I think the fact that you haven't been there long probably makes a difference, are the union advising what's a sensible claim?

When it happened to DH he'd actually already got another job so he settled for their first offer of 3 months, knowing that if it went to tribunal, he hadn't actually lost that much.

[livingnight]

@Platedshoes so Union seemed to think 12months was reasonable given everything.

I don't know how long these things tend to take. I have been applying but the job market in my area is really tight.

It's a nightmare- never wanted to be in the situation

[dreamfield]

hr man seemed to imply I should bite my hand off

Well he would because he's acting for the business not you.

What type of disability discrimination? Direct? Indirect? Arising from?

What you'd have to prove - and how feasible it is to do that - varies depending on the type of discrimination.

You need to think about the impact on you of pursuing a legal process. Have you had legal advice or only union support?

[livingnight]

it's direct discrimination and also victimisation for whistleblowing and ongoing harassment due to the above . I don't want into the details of it as you never know who reads what but the union have said they would support me if I want to take it tribunal.

Sadly it's been documented in the internal system (I imagine they weren't expect a SAR) and the union advised me to do one and it's been a depressing read.

Had legal advice on if I want to proceed and what next steps are (which I haven't told union) as I wasn't sure how independent the union are ...

My lawyer (not a no win no fee one) has advised they think that my employer would settle and they really wouldn't want this going to court and said usually for this type of thing 9/12 months wage given the level of what's been happening and there's a lot of evidence.

But you're right in terms of ET, it seems a long drawn out process and from my limited knowledge- doesn't sound like a lot of fun and frankly I'm tired. I feel like I have gone 100 rounds with Mike Tyson, with how badly I have been gaslit and what's worse is up until the point of the sar I thought we could solve it without going down this route at all.

I suppose even with all of the above there's part of my brain that says but maybe it's not such a big deal and maybe all employers just try to offer this to get rid of "problem" employees? Which I know I'm being classed as for WB which is a little shocking given what I WB on. I wouldn't say boo to a ghost in RL let alone WB unless it was a fairly major thing.

When hr suggested that I thought oh maybe they do this all the time (I realise now naive that sounds) typing it but it's why I posted I suppose. I wanted people's views ?maybe experiences either way.

[Platedshoes]

The company will definitely want to settle, but they also know that's what you want. 12 months seems a lot to me, in view of your short employment, but nothing to lose by having that as your opening offer.

[dreamfield]

Yes don't share details on here.

You don't really have anything to lose by continuing the negotiation process for now if union are supporting you. If both union and solicitor have mooted the same level of settlement then that's more credible. (Not necessarily achievable, but credible to counter offer.)

[livingnight]

It just seems like a lot to me too !!

All I wanted was to keep my job and have this all stop. But I don't think that's going to happen.

Sadly. I will speak to Acas and see

[Gagagardener]

If you take it to a tribunal, your employer will have to spend time and money on preparing their case and defence. Ask your rep or lawyer if they can put figures on how much a tribunal might cost your employer, and how long it might take for your case to reach a tribunal.

Legal fees will be expensive for your employers; they will not want to pay them. Your aim is to divert that expenditure towards yourself. So use the information to put your compensation into perspective, and to help you arrive at what you will settle for. (E.g., if it is a year, then say you want a year's salary, plus something for the direct discrimination you suffered in their employ because of your disability.)

An entirely uninformed guess is that they will settle at 15 to 18 months' salary. Go for whatever your rep/lawyer gives as the high end of a range. Make it clear to your employers that your having a disability will make finding a replacement job harder for you than it might otherwise be.

You are leaving the job because they have made your position untenable. Remember that. All best wishes.

[livingnight]

@Gagagardener

If you take it to a tribunal, your employer will have to spend time and money on preparing their case and defence. Ask your rep or lawyer if they can put figures on how much a tribunal might cost your employer, and how long it might take for your case to reach a tribunal.

Legal fees will be expensive for your employers; they will not want to pay them. Your aim is to divert that expenditure towards yourself. So use the information to put your compensation into perspective, and to help you arrive at what you will settle for. (E.g., if it is a year, then say you want a year's salary, plus something for the direct discrimination you suffered in their employ because of your disability.)

An entirely uninformed guess is that they will settle at 15 to 18 months' salary. Go for whatever your rep/lawyer gives as the high end of a range. Make it clear to your employers that your having a disability will make finding a replacement job harder for you than it might otherwise be.

You are leaving the job because they have made your position untenable. Remember that. All best wishes.

Thank you. I hadn't even thought of that.

Aghhh this is a nightmare

[Gagagardener]

You have the moral high ground. They have the money. They should be paying you a consultavy fee and sking you to advise them on where they are falling short..

[PlipPlopChoo]

Take em to the fecking cleaners! It sounds like they acted appallingly.

[DinnaeFashYersel]

Ask for 12 months and don't settle for anything less than 6 months.

[livingnight]

Thank you all.

I can only hear just for a sense check.

I'm really disappointed in the company tbh it's a large FT500 so should know better.

If it's happening at my level I feel incredibly bad for anyone at a lower level

[WoodBurningStov]

I've been involved in a couple of Compromise Agreements with employees the standard is 3 months salary tax free and a month's notice, which you take as graden leave but is taxed. A good settlement would be 6 months tax free and 2 months notice taken as garden leave. This should enable you to take a year of frugal living to find another role. A good reference should also be part of the agreement.

[WoodBurningStov]

@WoodBurningStov

I've been involved in a couple of Compromise Agreements with employees the standard is 3 months salary tax free and a month's notice, which you take as graden leave but is taxed. A good settlement would be 6 months tax free and 2 months notice taken as garden leave. This should enable you to take a year of frugal living to find another role. A good reference should also be part of the agreement.

Actually thinking that this is discrimination etc and the fact that you have a specialised role that will take a longer period of time to source, I'd be aiming higher than my original thought. As others have said, a tribunal will be expensive for the company and could be very bad press if they are a household name.

How old are you? Were you looking at this being your last job before pension age, loss of earnings and pension, loss of a specialised job which will take time to find again. All of this will need to be taken into consideration, not to mention that the company have broken employment rules which they should be held accountable for

[StrawberryEater]

Please don’t rely on advice from randoms on the internet.

Compensation in discrimination and victimisation claims is not entirely based on salary, length of service, or how long it will take to get a job. There is often a compensatory element for “injury to feelings”. There are also certain provisions for whistleblowers that a lawyer needs to consider.

Tell the company that you want to take legal advice before putting a figure to them. Do that ASAP.

Your union will likely have access to employment lawyers (most unions have a panel). Take legal advice from a qualified, specialist, solicitor on the value of the claim. In fact, instruct them to act in any negotiations. Again, most unions will cover the cost from your fees. If not, look at your household insurance as some policies cover legal expenses in employment cases. If you can’t work it out from the documents, call them.

If the union won’t pay, and the insurance won’t pay then you should consider paying. You may recover multiples of the cost of legal advice. You might not - but it’s probably worth taking a chance, especially if you think that you will be out of work for a while.

[SarahB88]

Have a look at what’s been paid out in tribunals for cases similar to yours and go with a figure slightly higher than that (as you’ll be paying legal fees too to be represented if you go to tribunal) then negotiate with your employer. They know they can’t defend the claim so will want to settle with you to not only avoid the legal costs of tribunal but also to prevent their name from being tarnished, ET records are publicly available.

[Twilightstarbright]

I would push for 6 months salary as a redundancy payment, (first 30k is free), your notice paid as gardening leave. Do you get any benefits like company car etc? Agree a reference and get the company to Pay for your legal advice.

It’s ok if you don’t want to go to ET. I was in a similar position a few years ago and I’m glad I took the payout as it was enough to breathe but ended the stress which was affecting my health hugely.

[livingnight]

@Twilightstarbright

I would push for 6 months salary as a redundancy payment, (first 30k is free), your notice paid as gardening leave. Do you get any benefits like company car etc? Agree a reference and get the company to Pay for your legal advice.

It’s ok if you don’t want to go to ET. I was in a similar position a few years ago and I’m glad I took the payout as it was enough to breathe but ended the stress which was affecting my health hugely.

This is my fear. I mean I can't quite image self representing against a company that would been able to have 5 lawyers on the other side.

It was annoying because the HR man said oh I don't know any of the details of this case and we haven't concluded our grievances process and it's been going on for 3 months and they have only just picked it up to look at it. It's bonkers !

[StrawberryEater]

@livingnight

This is my fear. I mean I can't quite image self representing against a company that would been able to have 5 lawyers on the other side.

It was annoying because the HR man said oh I don't know any of the details of this case and we haven't concluded our grievances process and it's been going on for 3 months and they have only just picked it up to look at it. It's bonkers !

Please see my message above. Your union will probably pay for a lawyer. Or you might get it on your household insurance. Having a lawyer does not mean you have to go to an ET. The vast majority of cases don’t go to hearings. But a lawyer will be able to expertly advise what your claim is worth and negotiate for you. And the company will take you FAR more seriously if you have a lawyer. They will have taken legal advice. You would be mad not to.

[PickledPurplePickle]

You've only been there a year, so there is a limit to what I expect them to want to pay. 12 months pay sounds a lot to ask for when you have only been there that long

What are you willing to accept? How long will it take you to find another role?

You might get them to go to 6 months

[Reallyitsonlyme]

Very much echo the point about agreeing a reference as part of the agreement. In a similar position we agreed a precise word for word reference which would be given if I ever needed it. I didn’t in the end as I went self employed but it gave comfort to know that it was there.

good luck, I know the stress involved.

[livingnight]

Hi all -

Based on what's happened the union and my lawyer have both agreed that 12 months is pretty much bang on what they would expect given the type of role I will have to look for, level of seniority I have but also frankly how badly they messed up on this front. I very much doubt the company will want to stand in front of a judge and explain themselves. That said the thought of a ET still fills me with dread tbh.

Re because this is linked to WB and disability discrimination there isn't a cap because it's not based on length of service. Those rights are in place day one.

Thank god tbf because if I hadn't WB I don't know if I could have lived with myself.

I had another chat with union to make sure they think I'm not over asking and they confirmed they think this is about right. In my unions reps words "they didn't actually put that in writing"

Anyway Acas were so lovely - my advisor said that most companies starting point is 3 months pay (even though there's not offical rule) and she's not surprised it was their first offer. She also said it was important to know that they made steps towards me in approaching that conversation.

I can't imagine anyone approaching a employer saying pay me off or else 😵‍💫

As I said previously I don't and didn't want to be in this position

[DumpsterBaby]

I’m confused. Discrimination is involved and as you say that is not capped. So I’m not sure why they keep referencing unfair dismissal only (eg three months etc). Have you not worked out your schedule of losses? You need to do that to give yourself an idea of what you could get at tribunal.

[livingnight]

@DumpsterBaby

I’m confused. Discrimination is involved and as you say that is not capped. So I’m not sure why they keep referencing unfair dismissal only (eg three months etc). Have you not worked out your schedule of losses? You need to do that to give yourself an idea of what you could get at tribunal.

Sorry I was responding to a previous poster that said my length of service would dictate how much to expect.

Yes I have that all prepped. It's the vento bands that have confused me slightly.

I'm just having a wobble. I realise I'm luckier than most as I have quite a lot of written evidence, but this has been very stressful tbh