Workplace bullying and constructive dismissal

[ElaineCA]

Has anybody here got any experience of workplace bullying and constructive dismissal? My OH has been signed off sick with stress and depression due to his line manager's bullying . Needless to say he does not want to return to work and intends to hand his notice in and look for something else. Does anyone know whether this might be grounds for constructive dismissal? At the moment he has no intention of taking it further, he is not in a good way and just wants to get away from work, which I can understand. I just wondered if there is something I should be putting in place in case he feels stronger in the future and wants to take it further. The manager in question has been had for bullying in his previous role but the company still promoted him. Does anyone who knows about this sort of thing have any advice? Has anyone here been in a similar situation and is able to comment? Would really appreciate some help.

[flowerybeanbag]

Elaine has he raised a grievance about this? Constructive dismissal is very difficult to prove and he would be expected to have tried to address this at work before resigning.

[edam]

Dh is in a very similar situation. Haven't pursued the constructive dismissal thing as it's just too stressful for him - he was sick with nerves the day the company sent a courier round to collect his laptop, I can't imagine how he'd cope with a legal case.

You have my sympathy but I don't have any brilliant answers, I'm afraid.

[LookattheLottie]

Get everything documented and written down asap. Get OH to the doctors and get confirmation that he's been signed off because of this. He will then need to raise a grievance about this. As flowerybeanbag said, it is hard to prove unless this issue has been raised before. If nothing has been said to them, you may find you're fighting a loosing battle as they'll turn around and say 'nothing has been reported to us re: bullying, stress, problems etc.......'

[ElaineCA]

flowereybeanbag - he hasn't raised a grievance. He is truthfully too scared of the consequences I think. He doesn't want to have to see or speak to this person again and I suppose he would have to have some sort of hearing if he went through grievance procedure where the person would have to be there?
edam - so sorry for you and dh. It is terrible to see anyone put through this, let alone someone who you love. I am full of hatred for the person who has done this to DH, if I got my hands on him I daren't think what I'd do!!!

[ElaineCA]

Would I send my letter to the company's HR department? Would he have to follow the grievance procedure immediately or could I just send a letter documenting what had happened and take it up as a grievance later? I know he is not up to going through the system yet.

[jamescagney]

so sorry for this awful situation you and your OH are in. I think he should go to the Doc, medical cert can say stress or anxiety or whatever OH feels suitable (and doc of course!) Then while the cert is in, you and he can think about what next. Don't decide anything just now. [hugs]

[flowerybeanbag]

I think if he is signed off with stress because of this he's probably got a bit of leeway about not bringing the grievance immediately but not much. How long's he been signed off for?

I'm going to give you my little speech which I am frequently to be seen giving people with work problems considering what action to take-

What are you not happy about in terms of your working situation?

What would a positive, realistic, achieveable outcome be for you?

What action can you take to get that result?

I think you and DH need to carefully discuss the second question. What does he want to achieve from this? I'm not going to tell you what to do. I would like you to bear in mind that if he chooses to bring a constructive dismissal claim it is difficult to prove and very stressful. He would need to bring a grievance against his boss, which would involve hearings, although not necessarily having to come face to face with his boss if that would be a problem, and I would expect him to remain signed off with stress for the duration of the process, so he wouldn't need to go into work during that time. So you need to check what his sick pay arrangements are.

The grievance may well be upheld but may be appealed against, so he might have to go through it again. Once this process is finished, if he doesn't have a satisfactory result and feels the problem hasn't been addressed and he can't possibly work there any more, he can resign and claim constructive dismissal. This would cost money in terms of lost salary while he puts in a claim and also solicitors fees.

If he wants to continue working there but wants this problem resolved, he should bring a grievance. If he doesn't want to continue working there he can either resign now and move on, or go through with the grievance, hope it's not resolved satisfactorily by the company, then resign and claim constructive dismissal. Risk is they may well take action to address his concerns which may then make a constructive dismissal claim impossible.

If they don't resolve it and he can then bring a constructive dismissal claim, and assuming he wins, you need to think about what he will have gained. Compensation may not be much, particularly if he gets another job in the meantime, and it will take months. The only other thing he would gain from winning would be a sense of justice, I don't know how important that is to him.

I would suggest you take some time over the next few days to work out what you and he want to do, come back with any questions if you need to.

[ElaineCA]

Wow, flowerybeanbag, that is fantastic!

He has been signed off for 3 weeks originally, then a further 2 and given antidepressants. Truthfully he would go back to his job but only if this manager was not on the scene - ie removed entirely and no chance of coming across him again. The only way I can see of that happening is a hearing and my OH's claim being upheld, which I suspect is unlikely in as much as this person has been done for bullying 3 people before and it resulted in him being promoted away from the people he directly bullied, not sacked, which is what I think would need to happen for OH to return. So that would be the outcome he would desire, whether than is realistic and achievable I am truly doubtful.

I am not sure he is in any way interested in monetary compensation. He cannot take the stress of a hearing at the mo and the way things are I can't see a time when he would be able to cope. So the scenario would seem that he should hand in his notice and walk away.

I realise that ultimately the decision is his but I have to say the thought of him leaving the job and the person responsible not being pulled up on his behaviour makes me sick. My OH has been with the company over 20 years, started as YTS and has had no more than 7 days sick in all that time until now. He has been promoted through the ranks and he is good at what he does (I used to work for the company too so have seen him in action, I'm not just biased ) He actually loves his job, he loves his staff and he loves the customer side of things, he just can't cope with being bullied. Grrrr!! We really do have some thinking to do.

From your point of view, working in HR, if you had a manager who had been pulled up for bullying before and who you'd promoted to move them on, what would be your reaction if the same thing reoccured? Just interested to see things from another perspective.

[Mojomummy]

ElaineCA, please don't let him resign.Don't let him leave/be made miserable by someone else. I am currently off sick & have been since Aug last year.I wish I had taken some action when the events first happened, instead of letting it absorb me & affect my family life. I have, eventually, got a grievance going on, with the final (& main) person being interviewed next week.

I'm not sure how the outcome will be, but I am SO pleased that it's going ahead. At least I can know that I tried to do something about it & the person(s) that have done me an injustice have been reported.

You don't mention the type of company he works for, so I don't know what kind of assistance he can get. I have had private counselling & have been able to see a NHS counsellor. Could he be offered similar ?

Hope that's of some additional help.

[WideWebWitch]

Poor you and dh.

Can I give you my pov from a manager's perspective? I manage teams of people and one person in my team is off sick with stress, partly, they say, as a result of bullying by a direct line manager (who is one of my reports). This person will not formalise their complaint and I have no evidence of bullying by the manager. I therefore CANNOT do ANYTHING so while I am incredibly sympathetic and supportive of the employee, I cannot address the situation without any evidence or a complaint. The employee who is off sick has repeatedly told me they won't make a formal complaint and I have documented this to show that I have not been allowed to take any action. So I can defend myself in tribunal (not that this is my only concern, far from it)

Thankfully, what has happened in my case is that someone else has complained in writing and there has been more recent behaviour that I have directly witnessed. So only NOW have I been able to formally address it with the person concerned. They now have an action plan in place and we will go formal if we don't see any change in behaviour from them.

I do understand that it can be hard but many companies and managers take bullying seriousl y these days and will address it if you give them the opportunity to. The andrea adams trust is good on what consitutes bullying but it can take subtle and varying forms and I do understad that it's very hard to deal with while you're in the midst of it and directly affected.

[WideWebWitch]

Andrea Adams

[WideWebWitch]

Btw, I have been the other side and brought a claim against an ex employer for constructive dismissal and sex discrimination. (I lost, their word against mine, cost me £12k of my own money)

It is VERY stressful, very expensive and constructive dismissal is v hard to prove. I would say bringing a grievance is the less stressful option. Any claim could also take a year+ to come to tribunal.

He does need to document EVERYTHING that's happened. What this manager said, when, what the effect was etc. Good luck.

I think the ideal outcome is that the manager's manager deals with it and your dh stays in the job he loves. But they won't/can't without a complaint/evidence.

[ElaineCA]

Thank you mojomummy and wickedwater witch, these are both really useful viewpoints. Mojom, I hope that it gets sorted so that you feel vindicated. It is sad that it seems like there are some really mean people out there. Wicked, it's really useful to hear a manager's viewpoint. In my dh's case I have an inkling that they are in a situation here someone needs to complain to allow them to do something,as you describe. DH seems a bit better (happy pills, as he calls them , taking effect) so I'm not sure if he's feeling more inclined to go the grievance route. He has no intention of returning but it at least might ensure that another person doesn't go through the same thing. Thanks again for your support and input. Will keep you posted.

[shhhfloweryisnotreallyhere]

Elaine in answer to your question about my professional reaction to a recurrence of bullying, I don't think what my own advice would be to an employer is actually what you want to know, as I am (sadly for your DH) not advising his employer. In terms of realistically what an employer's reaction would be, it may well very much depend on how valuable the manager is to the business, and what bottom line impact taking action against that person would have.

If the manager in question, aside from this issue, is very senior, hugely valuable to the business, produces great result from his/her team and brings in masses of revenue, you can understand that, rightly or wrongly, that is likely to influence a decision about how to address a potential problem like this.

Other factors will be - has this happened before, is it likely to happen again, costing HR and other management time in dealing with it, costs of people signed off with stress, etc

You mention in your most recent post that you sense they need an excuse to act. That's very often the case, particularly if there is a tendency for people not to complain formally, sometimes a pretext for action in the case of an expensive member of staff is very valuable.

Only your DH will be able to judge what the situation is with this person and with his company.

What action he takes needs to depend on what he wants as I've mentioned earlier. If he would want/need to take it all the way in search of compensation or other action, I would advise considering all the ups and downs of this carefully particularly as before this has even started he is already signed off with stress. I would also advise you to be careful that your own preference doesn't push him one way or another, it's his decision.

If what he wants is to get this situation on the record and allow the organisation to act, even if they don't do it immediately and need further evidence from others, he can and should make a complaint, even if he combines that with walking away himself and not taking action as far as he could. As mojomummy illustrates, his own personal decision will depend on how this would affect him if he walks away or if he fights as far as he can, what action is most likely to bring him 'closure' and deal with his stress. It could be either.

[ElaineCA]

Thank you incognito flowery, what you say really does help to put things into perspective as I am obviously just looking at things from an emotional point of view which isn't really all that helpful in a practical sense. I think OH is planning to have a discussion with his HR representative and I can only hope that he is completely honest.
His manager (the bully) phoned him on his mobile yesterday (a call he ignored), and he left a message which I listened to (OH couldn't bring himself to) asking him to call back. OH was beside himself with upset, so although he seems better on a day to day basis it's clear that he can't go back to working for this manager. He will still have to leave for his own sanity's sake, I think, but at least if he has made a statement to HR it can be documented and added to the other complaints against him which, one day, may make a difference to someone else's case. I live in hope. I would still like to see him disciplined, if not sacked, but as you rightly say, it's not my place or my choice. I can only have faith in the old adage of 'what goes around comes around' and hope he will get his come-uppance somewhere along the line. A very unChristian attitude I know, but true!!