Mums in the arts: writing, visual arts, etc

[expatkat]

I feel like there's a special set of problems that women who work out of the home don't encounter in the same way we do

Often we work at home, isolated, andeven if you can afford, say, a nanny or childminder to watch the children for a few hours, when the children are at home they often assume you are availableeven if you've made it clear that you're not--and they feel extra abandoment when, say, you ask them to leave so you can continue working.

Similarly, my actor friend spent a whole year when she pretty much never put her DD to bed because she had West End performances every night. This was incredibly hard for her DD

My DS (8) is proud that I've published a book and have another on the way, and that I do journalism/criticism too. I get him involved when I can--he is honest if something I've written is rubbish (and is always right!)

But in another way I think children can sense they come "second" to another passion/calling. Which is sadly the case for me right now because my career is just beginning to pick up, and I do put them second sometimes.

It's a huge source of guilt.

I had children because I like children very much, and wanted them badly. I thought I'd easily be able to fit my writing around their school days, etc, but in a way its been the opposite. A structured daily corporate/office job works better IMO--or by the sounds of it, it does.

Oh yes--the other difficulty of being a writer, is that you're out a lot in the evenings. . .lots parties/readings/events, opportunities to hang out with other writers, and lessen the isolation one feels. Also, if you're a creative writer, traveling around giving readings is a source of income.

Are there any other professional writers on here who struggle with ambivalence and MAJOR GUILT about the way they are handling motherhood?

[imaginaryfriend]

leweekend, that sounds very familiar re. your dp...

One thing I've noticed is dp's need to take 'breaks' - i.e. time to himself when I'm around to look after dd. So: If he's been at work and arrives home he needs a 'break'. If I've been at work and arrive home he needs a 'break' from looking after dd. I, on the other hand, never need a 'break.'

But I don't want to sound too sour.

I don't envy his success because I think his work is extraordinary. I just wish I had more time for mine without it seeming like I resent his success.

[leweekend]

Imaginary friend- what you say about your partner is very true of mine. He feels no guilt whatsoever (is a writer) about hiding away and not being as involved with the kids. Having said that, about four years ago things came to a head, and togive him mega credit, he did start to realise what i was doing on top of my creative work, and began to pull his weight in a different, but big way...

He is also happy to let them sit in front of tv while he "gets on"- where as I would feel guilty if I'm not doing something more constructive with them- starting them off on some baking or painting or something worthy.
He doesn't care!

[leweekend]

I've just spotted this thread a bit late in the day.I'm a cartoonist and work from home. sometimes I have a total rush on and other times are barren.
It is a huge split for anyone working as we do, and invariably one feels guilty.
The dust and washing mounts around you, the day is extremely short if you have to pick up from school at 3.30, and cook.
I thought it would be so easy before kids....It seemed ok with one, by the second I wasn't taking work which involved next day deadlines, and by the third I was doing more boring work just to bring in money.

The one thing I find helps is that I have a barn seperate from the main house where i can go and shut the door.

[expatkat]

thanks www x

[WideWebWitch]

(just dropped in to say hello to ExpatKat, nice to see you )

[expatkat]

that's exactly how is for me, barbarian, exactly those chores. (Plus a complicated school run that takes 3 hours out of my day.) But on the other hand I'm terrible about the "niceties," (xmas & bday cards & keeping up with old friends) & don't help out much at school, don't get involved with other mums at school. . . because sometimes you just can't be nice--the work takes up too much time. And if people think I'm a thoughtless bitch, so be it. I'm generous in other ways and have friends, so I can't be that bad a person.

You're right imaginaryfriend, it's a whole dif thing when it's about money. I'm dead lucky dh makes enough to afford us some childcare, because the money I make (& I do make some) is negligible.

Anyway I don't mean to complain so muchit's not that bad!it's mostly my feelings of guilt that started this thread, and wondering if others shared them.

[motherinferior]

I meant they don't experience it, really. And thus don't have to negotiate and deal with it.

In many ways I do think that there's a similar dynamic with lots of kinds of work - his work, whatever it is, tends to be more important than hers. I used to live - many years ago, long before kids - with a Bloke Journalist. I wasn't a journalist then, I was a press officer earning a decent and reliable income but feeling very frustrated and in the shade of Mr Journalist, who was very definitely the creative/political one. But then I went out with a museum curator, who felt the same way about our respective jobs. One of the things I value most about my current partner is that my job is as valuable as his.

I have to say I never drop my work to do Christmas shopping or meet friends (except in a vaguely work-ish way).

[imaginaryfriend]

The other hindrance, for me at least, is that my artwork was, for want of a better expression, 'dark.' In the past without sounding dramatic it made me psychologically quite unwell to be dwelling on the things I did dwell on. And I also find it hard to be that 'person' as well as being 'mum.' Does that makes sense? As to whether it's healthy to suppress one or the other aspects I've yet to fully discover.

[imaginaryfriend]

Well, in our case it was to do with who could earn money from what they do. Dp was the winner on that score! But I refuse to accept that that means he's the 'more talented'. For one thing our areas are completely incomparable - he is purely academic, in the world of philosophy and as that world goes he's doing really well (just about to publish his 3rd book and invited here, there and everywhere, plus paid very well to just produce his own work). Whereas in the art world you have to invest a lot of time and money into making the work, then a lot of time getting interest for the work and there's little recompense financially unless you're incredibly lucky and get taken up by an agent which in London is such a nightmare and involves virtual prostitution from what I've seen. So for me to take up time and money (neither of which we have) to do something which means dp can't do what he does and gets paid for seemed madness. I do still do some writing and I do work part-time in a not totally unrelated field. I just don't get to 'make stuff'. Hopefully it will change but I don't know when / how.

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

I am sure it is different for fathers. I suppose because they are not the main carer for their dcs. The thing about being at home writing is that you can always drop it to meet from school, care for poorly children, cover inset days, load the washing machine, Christmas shop, drive to music lessons, sports, meet friends, the list is endless.

[expatkat]

What does that mean, MI, "negotiate" guilt. It's such an interesting expression. Does that mean you agree with me about it being dif for fathers?

One thing I've noticed is that when both partners are artists/writers, the less talented/noticed becomes overshadowed, and the other has more power in the relationship, and is more "allowed" to pursue his/her art.

I've noticed that when the woman is the better known, it can be problematic: analogous to when a woman earns more money than a man. Many of those relationships don't last. Whereas if it's the man who's more powerful in their field, the wife/partner can end up giving up her work somewhat and taking on the old-fashioned identity of 'the woman behind the man.' But then, in other cases it's perfectly equitable, so I can't generalize. But anyway I'm not in that situation, so it's a moot point for me, but maybe applies to others on this thread.

God I'm so verbose, wish I could be concise and snappy like you MI!

[motherinferior]

I do think that most - not all, clearly - fathers do not negotiate that guilt. In work generally, actually.

[expatkat]

are your palpitations better?

Funny I'm sitting next to a guy here who was talking about how HE has palpitations. What a weird coincidence.

Mine have got much better over the years. I hope you've been feeling better too.

I'm sorry you've had to give to give up your career {sad} but luckily you dont sound too regretful

As for you DP, I'm convinced it's just different for fathers. . .the guilt doesn't apply.

(although unquietdad says otherwise!)

[imaginaryfriend]

expatkat - you've reverted to your old name! Remember me? I may have name-changed since we used to chat as it was a while ago! Think palpitations...

Well I used to be an artist and a reasonably successful one but since having dd I've found it virtually impossible. I can't work to short prescriptive hours, I've had to do other work to earn money and I've certainly no time to do the schmoozing necessary to keep up with who's showing their work where.

Dp is an academic and has had two 3 year fellowships in a row which have allowed him to work solely on his writing while also earning a perfectly reasonably living and only having to commit to a minimum of teaching. He never, absolutely never, feels guilty about what he does. Nor does he ever for a moment consider it not a 'real job.' He, however, has no other real responsibilities as apart from two days a week when he does school runs I look after dd. He works every day, every weekend and just about every evening. He tries to convince me that it's what all 'creative' people do, i.e., have no life other than writing. and I do remember being a little like that in my artist days, pre-dd. But I don't think, honestly speaking, since dd was born that he's compromised anything at all.

[expatkat]

Yes of course it's bliss. . .hence the guilt! As for retreats: I'm at a place called Yaddo right now, and it IS working (except for these moments of mumsnet procrastination!) I've got a lot done in the two days I've been here. I've been to other retreats with mixed results, but I think as I get older I've a better understanding of the value of time to myself. . .so I tend to use my time well.

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

Expatkat I do sympathise about the tears of guilt because of being away. I have been there and I hope you feel better soon. But isn't the peace a little tiny bit....

bliss?

Has anyone ever been to one of those retreat places and does it work?

[expatkat]

Barbarian, love that E.B. anecdote!

I think they should dub motherhood in the 2000s as The Age of Guilt. I mean, I guess we're lucky we live in a time when employment for women is the rule rather than the exception, but we seem to feel more gullt than our predecessors (eg our own mums!): about everything from breastfeeding to (see this IMO absurd thread )causing autism by drinking a little while pregnant.

I mean, Doris Lessing--didn't she actually abandon her chldren? And the American poet (Jean Valentine?) did the same. I mean, these people meant business, and they did what they had to do. (Though I think both situations were sad & complicated.) None of us here are actually abandoning our kids. We're just working. Why this intractable belief we're doing damage or don't deserve our careers?

where are you doing your MA oregonia, can I ask? And what genre?

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

Can I join in I have been writing since ds(now 15) was 1. dd was born 3 years in. It has been brilliant being always at home for them when they are ill etc. but holidays are very difficult. Like you Anorak, I read everything aloud and can only really work in an emptish house. But I never feel I am doing either job properly. One of my (childless) editors once told me rather reproachfully that Enid Blyton shut her kids up in a nice airy cupboard and got on with it and I actually found myself considering the cupboards...

[oregonianabroad]

Hello, can I join you?

I am an academic and am doing a PT MA in Creative Writing (mainly as an excerise to justify hours spent writing -- at least now I can say I have an assignment).

Nevertheless, all is not going to plan, and in addition to feelings of guilt I can add utter exhaustion, frustration, and a slightly schitzophrenic sense of being split in many directions.

[expatkat]

Wow: big life changes or you, Hat. And did I read on some thread that you're expecting another baby?

Yes, I'd imagine the "emotional attachment" to your soon-to-be-ex-job is prob similar to what the rest of us are talking about. x

[MarshaBrady]

Meant to put a at end of that, bit serious!

[MarshaBrady]

Haha no not me, I've only one pre-school ds - another source of ambivalence and guilt, the idea of having more children!. So she's doing very well to have 3 and painting career.

Thanks too, for encouragement. Btw I don't know any published poets. Damn great too I might add - to be published I mean - don't forget to enjoy it and be proud of your achievements, admist the mixed feelings.

[expatkat]

hahahaha MI, the detective! Would love to come round, and will do, when I'm back in the the UK and the Nunhead shifts resume. I hope all is going well at work?

Meant to say MarshaBrady: well done on your successes because you're in a helluva difficult field; not too many artists I know have children. That said: a painter-mum at my son's school, like you, is doing very well, with works in Saatchi's collection etc. . .and with 3 children! But some of her contemporaries feel her work isn't going at full steam, not like it was pre-children. (Oh dear, I hope it's not you! ) But I'm dead impressed with you both.

[expatkat]

I love your name, MarshaBrady, and thanks for that encouraging post.