Suspension from work - part 2

[applecrumbleandcream]

Thanks everyone, just catching up. Not feeling too good today. A bit grim. Not feeling strong at all but emotional and very sad. Been to the doctors again and just broke down completely, he wants to sign me off but I told him that I just want to get all this over with. He has wrote me a statement whilst I was there blubbering for me to send to the Investigator to say that I am not currently well enough to complete this work. I even had the doctor crying and saying he despairs that employers are doing this. I told him I have got no confidence in the unison rep. I spoke to him this morning to ask his advice about filling in this statement when it doesn't list my computer and what should I do, he was very sharp said if I don't do as I am asked then it is going to go to a Hearing and then said he was in a meeting and just cut me off!!!

My dad has said he will get me the best lawyer there is and forget about Unison, just wondering what to do about this. Have to go back to doctors again next Thursday. He is compiling a proper medical statement for me.

I'm sorry if none of this makes sense, but I can't think straight at the moment.

[NapaCab]

Actually, I think it was about 400 quid including VAT for the first full consultation and advice with my lawyer. Legal fees in total for a negotiated exit and protection of my maternity rights was about 2800 quid.

[NapaCab]

Yes, I'd second that advice from Leonie to get everything sent by recorded delivery, keep all e-mail exchanges etc. Don't have any off-the-record conversations.

[worldgonecrazy]

I believe your relationship with your employer has broken down to the point where you can no longer return there. If you can afford a lawyer specialising in employment tribunals, then I would get one. It shows your're serious, and the lawyer, unlike the Union, will want to get as much compensation for you as he possibly can because it means his fees will be greater.

If you can, I would go down that route and sue for constructive dismissal at the same time. It may be that as they are looking at making redundancies, you can go quietly with an enhanced redundancy package and compensation. Not ideal if you wanted to keep your job, but probably the best option for you at this time.

[ToothbrushThief]

stealth - yes but.... what is written down? At the moment unless the investigators have insisted on paper that it is provided in one day it does't count in court as evidence

We rely on a humane approach at work because we are all failable. Once you lose that... (loss of trust on either side) it becomes an exercise in conforming to local protocol and evidencing that you have done so. Employers are usually experts at this. They may act badly but their paperwork evidences circumstances differently.

I was a rep once (handled industrial action/grievances/diciplinary) and I backed the staff to the hilt.

Then I was a staff member going through a grievance.

Now I am a manager. I'd hope my staff still say I work with them. I'm still an employee and could face what the OP is.

She may no longer want this job - but she may need it.

I felt the same following my grievance. I left...but only after I'd got another job. I never returned full time to my previous job - off sick with (genuine) stress and then a phased return. It's easier to get work when in a job and with a clean record. I'd say clear your name then start looking to leave.

Claims of constructive dismissal may be a lovely thought, but the reality of that is unlikely at this stage

[Iwantcandy]

What longtalljosie said

Plus if you have household insurance I suggest you ring you insurer today to ask whether you have legal expenses cover and in what circumstances so that if you decide to use a lawyer you will know beforehand whether or not your insurer will pay. Your insurer will probably try to insist that you use one of their recommended lawyers, but this us not the case, you can use any lawyer you choose but may have to pay the difference between what your insurer will pay and the lawyer's actual charges.

Also ask your union whether you can speak to or meet one of their lawyers.

However, I suggest you pick one person you trust and go with their advice. As an employment lawyer I find it very frustrating when clients go into a panic and take advice left right and centre (although I can understand why). You need one experienced person to guide you through this. Good luck

[2ombie5layer]

sorry to hear its not going well yet. Still thinking of you, hope you see some light at the end of this very dark tunnel soon.

[applecrumbleandcream]

Thanks everyone. That is a good point. I am going to check the paperwork to see if we are covered within our household insurance for legal expenses (when I can find it).

Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier but I am not signed off work with stress and anxiety... even though the doctor did to do this. I told him I want to be able to attend all the meetings etc at this stage as being on sickness absence would just delay these meetings which would inevitably happen anyway (with or without me there). Until Wednesday's meeting I would have said that I wanted to return to my job (however difficult that may be) as I genuinely loved working there, enjoyed my job and colleagues were all great, but now I am not sure... I have no trust in the management team, if I went back I feel paranoid as though I'm being watched and monitored all the time, I feel humiliation that it all happened and will restrict my career progression and also that people will think there is truth to all the allegations and my integrity and reputation have been destroyed.

Ilovecandy, as an employment lawyer, if you don't mind me asking... at what stage would the lawyer be brought in... would they attend the disciplinary with me or would they be contacting the LA once a decision has been made following the outcome of the disciplinary? Sorry if this sounds like a silly question.

This is all making me feel so ill. Took my new medication last night which is a beta blocker, stops adrenaline and supposed to stop me panicking and anxiety but all night my heart was pounding as though I was having a panic attack... My skin feels like it is crawling with something, itchy, cold sores round my mouth and mouth ulcers, feel utterly shit!!! So angry that they have done this to me.

This morning I will email the Investigator to inform them that the timescale to review the 11 page document is unrealistic and that after visiting the GP yesterday, I will be sending by recorded delivery a statement from him to this effect. This will then give me the opportunity to look through the document over the next few days.

[Kladdkaka]

I'm not a lawyer, just a law student (and not a particularly good one), but there's one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet which is really important. I studied a very small bit on employment tribunals and one thing I remember is that one of the biggest reasons that employees claims are rejected is that they haven't exhausted the employers grievance procedure.

This is very important. If you are unable to return to work (your decision or theirs) you must file a grievance and follow the process to the end, through all the escalation steps.

All the best.

[applecrumbleandcream]

Thanks Kladdkaka, I will bear that in mind.

[BafanaThesober]

Apple
Try contacting the Branch Sec of your unison branch, and just explain that you do not feel that your rep is supporting you, unfortunately, the role of rep is voluntary, and there are some bad ones out there!! If you get no joy from the Branch Sec, try and find out who the Regional organiser is for your branch and contact them.
I would suggest that you don't talk to a solicitor yet, as if Unison gets wind of it, they will immediately withdraw all support (although the support you are getting is pretty shit at the moment).
If the disciplinary doesn't go your way, you can then have it referred to Unison's legal department, unfortunately they would be able to look at it at the moment.

If you want to PM me, I can see if I can find out more about your branch, and see who would be best to contact, but I can't guarantee I would know anyone, but would be happy to try!
Chin up, it's a horrible situation to be in, and you rep is not helping!! I would bloody read them the riot act, if they were one of mine!

[DogEared]

Bloody hell. What utter heartless wankers they are. Thinking of you a lot x

[auntpetunia]

I second what Bafa said go to Regional Unison and then things will move I did this and in 5 days had meeting with unison appointed solicitor and never had to deal with idiot's in management again!

[totallyskint]

I agree with Kladdkaka.

Even though my ex-employers did everything wrong procedurally, the union rep kept saying we had to go along with whatever they asked, that it would be important if and when we went to a tribunal.

And sure enough the reason I won an above board settlement was because we had followed procedure to the letter and they had not. In the end procedure seems to be more important than the issues at hand.

[totallyskint]

Oh, also, the tribunal is not as legal as a court hearing iykwim, you pretty much have to prove you did everything right rather than them prove you did anything wrong.

And with regards to at what point a lawyer, well my case was passed to the union's law section once we had exhausted the company grievance procedure. But if you can afford your own (and you need a good employment lawyer) it may be worth engaging one now. Possibly they could accompany you to your next meeting and rattle the employers a bit.

[applecrumbleandcream]

Thanks everyone, a lot to think about.

Just a query, does anyone know what guidelines there are if you are signed off sick whilst on suspension and if they do take it to a disciplinary hearing, would I still be able to attend whilst signed off sick? Just wondering.

[MakesCakesWhenStressed]

So sorry you're still going through this Apple :(

[topshelfrita]

I don't think your employers would be ABLE to hold a disciplinary hearing if you were unable to attend due to (certfied) sickness -- they would have to wait until you were fit enough to be there.

[Softlysoftly]

Hiya Apple my situation was slightly different in that they tried to bump me down a level while on maternity, heartbreaking as I worked my ass off for them and had it been my boss it would never have happened however a new (male) director had been brought in while I was away and had forced out EVERY outspoken female including my boss so I had a fairly good headsup on what was likely to happen.

In your situation its not as clearcut however what I did find by talking to a lawyer is that they helped me understand the process in which I would have floundered not knowing my rights and being a bit lost like you are. It's not fair that HR and the council have all this legal knowledge and you are in the dark, I wanted a lawyer because then I knew that I couldn't cock something up and give them more ammo and they couldn't pull a fast one.

The first question in that hours consultation they asked was do I want my old job back or did I want out? And that's what you need to know as if it's the first you need to go through their internal motions. If it's the latter there may be a way to cut your way clear.

A pp said you HAVE to go through their grievance well that's not always strictly true, my lawyer found that they has messed up a small part of the process they had to follow and therefore I was under no legal obligation to play the rules either hence straight to threat of tribunal and payout.

My point being it MAY be the case your lawyer says they have done nothing wrong, keep on with Unison and follow this through to it's conclusion as instructed then if the outcome is bad (you are fired) they can look at the case for unfair dismissal. Or it MAY be the case your lawyer says (I suspect) that the gross misconduct charge was extreme, they had an obligation to bring up issues in your one to one before getting to this stage (especially seeing as some of it was known last April) they had a duty to keep the log in details and flexitime system secure etc etc all adding up to them being in the wrong and you have a case against them now and can either use it to force them into dropping the whole thing and reinstating you (lawyers aren't there just for tribunals) and you just pay for a letter or two or you can go for a payout,

Either way if you speak to a lawyer you come out better informed of your options, stronger in knowing your rights and don't ever have to go ahead with it, tell your employers you spoke to one or Unison. There is nothing to lose to ask.

[Metters]

Your employer would probably refer you to occupational health to ask them to assess your fitness to attend a disciplinary hearing.

[SunflowersSmile]

So much good advice here.
Just thinking that your employers have to be careful not to bully you. In a way the inaccuracies in their paperwork so far is a form of harassment in my book. They need to sort out their accuracy before you can respond to whatever they are accusing you of.
So far they have been outrageously incompetent- which has to be to your advantage in the long run.

[zebrafinch]

applecrumble not sure if someone else has recommended this but google the Central London Law Centre you can download from their website a publication by Tamara Lewis "Facing Disciplinary Action: A Guide for employees and their representatives" . It may be that you do not actually have to attend a disciplinary hearing but this has good advice in case you do (e.g. why it is not a good idea to resign and claim constructive dismissal and how to prepare for a disciplinary). Good Luck but more than luck you have to try to remain calm and be forensic in analysing and defending any allegation. Is there someone who can sit beside you and help you whilst you go through and make notes on the stuff you have been given?
I know it will be difficult not to worry but can you try to say to yourself, OK I cant stop worrying about this but I can try to timetable my worrying to a set hour in the day and then fill up your other hours with positive activities that can occupy and distract you.?

[zebrafinch]

Regarding a previous post The Lewis publication has in it advice on sickness and attendance at a disciplinary

[StealthPolarBear]

Toothbrush thief I may be being nqive but surely this meeting will have been minutes? With minutes agreed by all. That was standard at my la. BTW as investigating officer it was drummed into me that I did not have an agenda, other than to be thorough and Fair.. not fair that this isn't he case everywhere

[bringbacksideburns]

Your rep sounds absolutley shit. I'm another one seconding you ring your branch secretary and ask for another, more supportive one.

They should then help you fill in what you can remember. For the days you weren't even in don't fill them in at all, stating that is categorically not you. It sounds like other members of staff to me and you've been made a scapegoat. I'll bet they are all running around like headless chickens trying to cover their tracks.
You've been treated badly, the very fact it's taken so long and been dragged out so much has compromised your mental health and you are entitled to take out a grievance against the way management have treated you, in the future.

For now i'd go through with the next meeting then sign off sick. You have done nothing wrong as far as i can see and i hope you don't make yourself too ill worrying. A decent Rep should be putting your mind at rest not making you feel worse.

Good luck.