Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"

[beastlyslumber]

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

[MildredsMoustache]

MurielSpriggs

Whatever it's origins, the way "woke" is currently used is the Daily-Express-reactionary equivalent to "political correctness gone mad"


My father, who has some horrible views, uses 'woke' to write off anything in the exact way he would use 'pc gone mad'. If I discussed gender ideology with him, he would use it as permission to sneer at trans people, and then move on to sneer about e.g. overweight people or immigrants.

So for me, the term is already problematic for that reason.

As I am also hearing black women on this thread saying they find the use of 'woke' problematic, which I hadn't realised before, I would be quite happy if we could leave this word out of the discussion. And find a better term for this specific context.

I do agree with this though:

We are not using it in a derogatory way, we are reacting to those that call themselves 'woke'

It is a sort of one-step-removed appropriation of the word, right? It's different from, say, 'snowflake' in that I don't think anyone has claimed proudly to be a snowflake. But there is a kind of person who considers themselves woke, and isn't just using it in a racism context.

So is there a useful term for that kind of person? Do we need to have terms for 'that kind of person', or is that unhelpful/divisive anyway?

[beastlyslumber]

This discussion was not at all what I was expecting with this thread, but it's been interesting!

I don't think women on here use the term with the intention of being derogatory towards black women. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, of course, but that's my impression.

I think, as LobsterNapkin pointed out earlier, there is an inherent irony in the use of the term "woke" which usefully identifies the way the word was adopted by wealthy white millenials who believe they are giving voice to people whom they (racistly) assume cannot speak for themselves. And as Shed says, I think any negative feeling is directed towards those people, rather than towards those who originated the term in the first place.

I don't believe that words can be "appropriated" but of course they can be misused and deployed in different ways. I definitely agree that another term might be better, although I can also see that it will be difficult to find a good name for a movement/ideology that does not really want to be named.

[Shedmistress]

For a woman, who is also black, looking in on FWR, it's not always clear when you are all using this term " woke" in a derogatory way, that you aren't referring to black people, but others.

Really? This whole thread was about it way itnhas been hijacked and gncq even said 'We do need a word to describe the current political movement originating from North America, so popular amongst middle class university students, that is completely against free speech and is pro language control, that we now describe as "woke".

We are not using it in a derogatory way, we are reacting to those that call themselves 'woke' in their protests against women who believe in biology,

But hey have a pop at the women on here who despise the people that have appropriated it, rather than the people that appropriated it, sure. If that makes you feel better.

[CharlieParley]

I should probably add that in your example it's the catchphrase that subsequently took off (but not in any massive way) and not the name. As is clear if from the link you posted.

[CharlieParley]

@Momobeats

The word "Karen" is similar in that respect. The subreddit which came out of that man hating on his (ex)wife Karen was in 2017, the subreddit blew up, the (general) Karen memes took off in 2018 and by 2020

This is simply not true, the name Karen being associated with race was first made popular in 2010 (see below)

knowyourmeme.com/memes/oh-my-god-karen-you-cant-just-ask-someone-why-theyre-white

Origin
The catchphrase comes from a set of lines from the 2004 comedy Mean Girls. In the film Karen Smith (Amanda Seyfried) asks Cady Heron (Lindsay Lohan) “So if you’re from Africa, why are you white?” to which Gretchen Wieners (Lacey Chabert) admonishes “Oh my god Karen, you can’t just ask people why they’re white.”

It wasn't made popular in any way by that catchphrase. Because that never took off and didn't turn into Karen being used as a slur.

All kinds of names have been used to denote stereotypes, Becky was one of the more popular ones previously, but Karen didn't take off until after the madly popular subreddit "Fuck You Karen" first turned the word into a slur against any middle-aged woman who dared to be assertive.

Its use for white women being racist followed shortly thereafter. I mean there's a reason why the papers and the literati were writing countless columns about the word Karen in 2020, why it was made word of the year in 2020 in the context of labelling white women being racist as Karens. That's because it wasn't popular much before then.

The name itself is bloody ancient, so obviously there's all kinds of sketches about this name (and other names). But we're discussing widespread usage in this specific context and that didn't happen until after 2018.

(It is obvious that many people had no idea that the use of Karen as a slur originated from a properly misogynist subreddit. Or that the haircut now associated with Karens became a meme on its own a few years before the name was popularised as a slur. The haircut was associated with the same stereotypes as Karen - white, middle-aged woman, plus traits like assertiveness or entitlement and someone married them up and the meme Karen had a meme haircut.)

[Momobeats]

@LobsterNapkin

Unpleasant stereotypes are unpleasant stereotypes.

So you're happy to perpetuate an unfair stereotype that has led to the death and incarceration of too many black people over the last century as long as it suits your purpose?

[PrincessNutella]

The two terms are not at all the same. "Karen" is purely an insult, while "woke" is a term, like "politically correct" that has been hijacked by privileged white so-called progressives as a form of self-flattery. The very idea that white people would feel free to appropriate this term is part of the irony that makes "wokism" so mockable.

[LobsterNapkin]

Unpleasant stereotypes are unpleasant stereotypes.

[Momobeats]

@LobsterNapkin

Not my words, it was a disgusting comment by @dropthevipers in this thread on friday

I don't think that comment means what you think it means.

It's pointing out that liking dresses or romantic films doesn't make you a woman, any more than liking jerk chicken makes you black.

Wow!

Jerk chicken and marijuana

You really don't get it do you?

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

@Lovelyricepudding

(JB, incidentally, I'm familiar with. We are around the same age. JB is all about JB, ultimately, and always has been)

Now you reveal your true intention.

This is FWR, not Wacky Races and the poster that you quote is not Dick Dastardly.

[LobsterNapkin]

Not my words, it was a disgusting comment by @dropthevipers in this thread on friday

I don't think that comment means what you think it means.

It's pointing out that liking dresses or romantic films doesn't make you a woman, any more than liking jerk chicken makes you black.

[Lovelyricepudding]

(JB, incidentally, I'm familiar with. We are around the same age. JB is all about JB, ultimately, and always has been)

Now you reveal your true intention.

[LobsterNapkin]

@HazelCarbyFan

The notion of “class consciousness” goes back to Marx, but nobody was using the specific term “woke.” The concept is not new, but the post-structuralists (largely writing in French) were not using “woke.” That is a term originating in contemporary Black culture within the last decade. Before that we talked about developing racial consciousness but we used to just call it “being conscious,” being real, etc.

Woke was absolutely around before the last decade. It was around for sure in the 70s and while I don't remember earlier than that I believe it had been around since before the 50s.

[BlackandGreen]

Shedmistress My reply has disappeared twice now. So in short, no, I didn't read it like that.

I'm not a regular poster on FWR, just a lurker.

A one word post saying Stalinism, posted after I've posted, doesn't automatically translate to a wider meaning. Especially when read in context with sneery replies to another poster.
I've spent my life organising for women and girls, I understand the issues. What I have difficulty with, is understanding the shorthand on here.

Thank you for clarification. More helpful to me as a lurker, than your original dismissive FFS.

For a woman, who is also black, looking in on FWR, it's not always clear when you are all using this term " woke" in a derogatory way, that you aren't referring to black people, but others.

To me, reading dismissive comments about " wokeness" reads to include me as a black woman. Black people don't use it in your way, it's as simple, and as complicated as that. Telling us simply to get on with it, as others have decided to appropriate the word for their own means, leaves us still on the outside. That's why many women who are black organise amongst themselves. We are expected to fit in with the majority but usually with some cost to us. ( Like not being listened to) Divide and rule, as ever.

(JB, incidentally, I'm familiar with. We are around the same age. JB is all about JB, ultimately, and always has been)

[Momobeats]

The word "Karen" is similar in that respect. The subreddit which came out of that man hating on his (ex)wife Karen was in 2017, the subreddit blew up, the (general) Karen memes took off in 2018 and by 2020

This is simply not true, the name Karen being associated with race was first made popular in 2010 (see below)

knowyourmeme.com/memes/oh-my-god-karen-you-cant-just-ask-someone-why-theyre-white

Origin
The catchphrase comes from a set of lines from the 2004 comedy Mean Girls. In the film Karen Smith (Amanda Seyfried) asks Cady Heron (Lindsay Lohan) “So if you’re from Africa, why are you white?” to which Gretchen Wieners (Lacey Chabert) admonishes “Oh my god Karen, you can’t just ask people why they’re white.”

[CharlieParley]

@HazelCarbyFan

I agree - at first I thought people complaining about “Karen” were merely being dismissive of Black people addressing power dynamics, but after seeing discussions on here, I noticed how it was being used constantly for no reason completely devoid from any meaning. So I stopped using it. Can’t we do the same thing for mindlessly labeling things woke? It’s like neoliberal - it means something but there was a while when it was being applied to so much it became meaningless and became less useful to use as a result.

I do appreciate the dialogue on here. I posted in upset, which I think is fair, and was really annoyed, and some have been hostile, but others, even if disagreeing have been open. I do believe women can talk with each other!

I completely understand where you're coming from. I don't use the word "woke" in that particular way, precisely because it became a word associated with the BLM movement. I prefer either "identity politics" or "critical theories" as a collective word, but many people won't know what exactly that refers to.

I will say that with any word coined in the information age, life cycles are much shorter. The word "woke" didn't even get half a decade's worth of the most recent use before it was considered cool and widely adopted by all kinds of progressives around 2015, but it became especially associated with millenials. And that prompted the ridicule, and the way it is now used to dismiss identity politics.

The word "Karen" is similar in that respect. The subreddit which came out of that man hating on his (ex)wife Karen was in 2017, the subreddit blew up, the (general) Karen memes took off in 2018 and by 2020, Karen was being used to denote a white woman being racist, instead of "Permit Patty" or "BBQ Becky", some of the previous names for such women.

And I guess, because the name went viral to that extent, and it was found to be useful, there's a certain ownership felt in regard to the word by black civil rights activists.

And that feeling is fine in my view, even if we can argue about whether it's justified or not. Especially with memes like that it's the case that they change so quickly, and get used in often very different ways precisely because the internal-using meme-loving public feels they own the meme and can use it however they like.

I think it's important to consider that that's not appropriation, or any kind of -ism. That's the nature of the internet.

I do always want us to be able to have this kind of discourse though. Because otherwise we cannot really hope to understand each other. So I just wanted to say that I appreciate your comments.

[Lovelyricepudding]

Woke is a term created by Black people to describe the awakening of racial consciousness

Woke is a word that is the past tense for wake. It was appropriated in America for another use but not in the UK. Words and their meanings change and sometimes causes have to drop a word as it has drifted too far - see Spastic Society (now Scope).

[Seemslikeagoodidea]

@Gncq

To insist others stop using a term for a movement that we can all see very clearly in front of our own eyes that is referred to as "woke", is ironically and unbearably woke.

As PP said, how about engage in the harm this movement is causing rather than forcing language control which is what the woke movement is known for.

This.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

This thread seems to have gone in a totally different direction to what I expected when I clicked.

FWIW, I personally prefer pseudo-progressive, and fauxgressive to describe the same outlook.

I feel it articulates my issue better, seeing as they wear the word woke (which, yes, I've been told they adopted from black Americans talking about rasing class consciousness) with pride.

[beastlyslumber]

@KerryWeaver

Julie Burchill and her ever repulsive views has always attracted the ignorant.

Bless you

[KimikosNightmare]

@MurielSpriggs

Whatever it's origins, the way "woke" is currently used is the Daily-Express-reactionary equivalent to "political correctness gone mad", and, for those of us old enough to remember it, "the loony left".

I'm old enough to remember the loony left and they were loony. I voted for Labour in those days, but my goodness there were some shockers.

John Smith and Neil Kinnock worked very hard to get rid of the loony left to make Labour electable.

[KerryWeaver]

Julie Burchill and her ever repulsive views has always attracted the ignorant.

[NoNotMeNoSiree]

@Classica

I agree with *@HazelCarbyFan*.

Using 'woke' as a dismissive umbrella term for multiple issues just means people have an excuse not to engage with any of them. Oh I don't like x, y and z 'cos they're woke.

It's the new 'p.c gone mad'.

This

[PlasticPlantsDontDie]

@HazelCarbyFan you are 100% right. I hate that it has been hijacked in this way. We object to the usage of Karen beyond its original meaning so it’s logically inconsistent to not feel the same about Woke.

[allmywhat]

Oh look! A purity spiral in the comments

I don’t think that’s fair at all, the comments are an actual discussion not a purity spiral.

Earlier I described “wokeness” as a constellation of unintelligent left-identifying ideas but I think I was being unfair. Not all the ideas are intrinsically terrible. It’s having a certain set of ideas and applying them in a rigid, inflexible, and above all authoritarian way. And using identity politics one-upmanship to bring down your rivals and jostle for social status, often by playing the victim. When that happens in an online forum you get purity spirals.

I don’t see that happening here; I think people are genuinely trying to listen to each other.