Childhood experiences of gender non-conformism

[ButterflyHatched]

A recurring theme in discussion amongst posters on this forum is that they either have, or have had, exhibited some or all of the past or current diagnostic criteria for gender incongruence/dysphoria.

It was pointed out that there would be value in creating a thread to give people a space to describe these experiences.

1. Do you think you meet these criteria currently?
   
2. Do you believe that you used to?
   
3. If so, how long ago, roughly, was this?
   
4. If so, did you pursue treatment of any kind?
   
5. If not, do you think you would have sought a referral to GIDS or GIC, had it been an available option you were aware of? Do you think you would you have desisted?
   
6. What is your general experience of the concept of gender, in whatever way you would choose to define it?

[JulesRimetStillGleaming]

I've read the DSM criteria now and yes, I would've ticked all of them except the sexual anatomy ones. Can't remember this being an issue.

Most autistic girls could probably tick all those criteria except the last two too.

[CharlieParley]

I should probably add that although I met the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria in children, I believe my experience was a perfectly normal reaction to a society that a) tried to put me into a straitjacket that I didn't want to wear and never fitted me in any case and b) actively and directly discriminated against the female sex and c) the horrible, soul-destroying male entitlement that meant I was sexually harassed before I'd even hit puberty.

I think it's normal to object to all of that, I think it's normal for a girl to be distressed when she is treated in this way and I think it's normal not to want to be a girl or a woman when that brings those experiences into her life.

And certainly from my experience talking to detransitioners and trans-identifying female youngsters and watching their videos and reading their articles, it's clear to me that almost all of them are primarily motivated by an urgent, ardent desire to escape this unfair and upsetting treatment.

I believe girls and women have a different reason for wanting to get away from being women and girls than men and boys have for wanting to get away from being men and boys. We're not giving up power and privilege when we try to identify out of being women and girls, we're trying to escape oppression (which both results in and is caused by sexual violence against us).

The solution therefore should never be to change our bodies to escape oppression. It should be to change the system to abolish oppression.

[LemonCheesecakeForTea]

Wow, reading the criteria is scary... My friend would have met them 100% as a child. She is not trans as an adult (born 1980s). I was one of very few female friends of hers in school (primary), she mainly played with the boys. Used to pretend she was a boy and adopt a boy's name in games. Always wore trousers/shorts, had short hair. And crucially say "I want to be a boy". I think this was all fairly accepted as typical "tomboyish" behaviour for a girl, I'm sure there's plenty of children's books that covered it .

The scary thing is I know of the identical scenario happening now and the child has been told they are now a boy. Nothing to do with a dislike of her actual body, but surely that will change once puberty hits and she's suddenly got to deal with not having the same body as the "other boys". Arghhh

[CatsOperatingInGangs]

1. Do you think you meet these criteria currently? No
   
2. Do you believe that you used to? Yes
   
3. If so, how long ago, roughly, was this? in the 70/80/90s
   
4. If so, did you pursue treatment of any kind? No
   
5. If not, do you think you would have sought a referral to GIDS or GIC, had it been an available option you were aware of? Do you think you would you have desisted?
   

No I wouldn’t have sought a referral. There was nothing in society at that time telling boyish girls they could actually be a boy.

1. What is your general experience of the concept of gender, in whatever way you would choose to define it?
   

throughout my childhood as never saw myself as any different to my male friends. I liked what they liked, played the games they played. If I did play with girls I was always a boy in the make believe games we played because all the girl roles were perceived by me to be silly. They just cared about make up and looking pretty for boys. It was only when puberty hit my world turned upside down and I started to be treated differently by the male people around me. Boys didn’t want to play anymore, although they were certainly interested in my new curves. Adults sneered at my interests because they were things boys were interested in and what was I doing there at the football? Should my brother be here instead? What aren’t you at home with your mother? I was asked that every week as a “joke” by my grandfather friends who found it hilarious a girl liked football.
At school I found teenage girls utterly silent to me, and terrifying in their packs with unwritten rules about hair and clothes. When I escaped to University, I was so traumatised I just made friends with young men and hid my curves under the biggest, shapeless clothes and boots. I found acceptance of myself around age 25 and have both male and female friends now, although all my female friends are similar to me. We like being female now but rail against a body that makes the things we like doing uncomfortable (such as sports) and a society that still treats us less favourable that our male peers. We’ve all be sat in meetings for 20 odd years and been ignore or spoken over. It never happens to our husbands unsurprisingly.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I have always been gender nonconforming, but don’t think I have ever had gender dysphoria. Although the child me would have definitely met the majority of the criteria for gender dysphoria in children. But I think the criteria for children are describing gender nonconformance, not gender dysphoria. Which is dangerous because it medicalises gender nonconformance.

I also have a problem with authority and authoritative figures, so I question everything and in so doing have found most conventional wisdom is only so much bullshit fed to us via socialisation. I abide by the concept that every person is unique in their likes/dislikes and desires. That gender is a social construct and tool of the patriarchy to oppress women. I don’t always do the opposite of what sex based gender stereotypes or roles would dictate for a female....I just do me. There are a few aspects about me that are gender conforming...I have long hair, I like mumsnet, I enjoy being a mother....

[Beamur]

I always knew I was a girl. But I didn't like dresses and long hair. So I wore trousers and had short hair and often got mistaken for being a boy. This annoyed me slightly as liking boy-ish things did not make me a boy.
Growing up in the 1970's - toys were much less gendered. It really didn't matter what you played with.
One of my cousins was even less keen on performance feminity than me. By modern standards I wonder if she would be considered trans. She went by a boy's name, wore boyish clothing.
No one really batted an eyelid. The general response was wry acceptance. We used her preferred name. No one actually thought she was a boy though...
A few years later the boy name preference drifted away as did both mine and her choices around clothing.
I'm now married with a family and she is unmarried and probably discretely gay.
My own experience of gender non conformity is of it being a fairly normal and unremarkable part of growing up.
My further experience within parenting has been again, it's an unremarkable part of girls growing up to experiment with presentation and rejection of 'feminity' whilst still being quite secure in their biology.
My own DD remarked to me recently how gender neutral her childhood had been. She says it's much easier just to see herself as a girl and dress and present how she wants, whilst many of her peers struggle with defining themselves by identity labels.
That's only my own personal experience. No one got upset. No one got medicated. Parents were kind and supportive but mostly unconcerned.

[TurquoiseBaubles]

I don't know a single child who is completely gender conforming

[Namenic]

I’m v grateful that I always knew it was never possible to change sex. I had gender non conforming interests and was frequently mistaken for a boy (especially when going into toilets). Disliked breasts and wished I had the boost of growth and strength that my brothers did at puberty. Hated periods. I personally still prefer V shape physique on myself rather than hourglass and think it would be awesome to have a 6 pac (probably not gonna happen).

However I always knew I would like to marry a man and have children - ideally biological, but if not then adopting. Around 14 I decided that in order to increase my pool of potential mates, I probably needed to grow my hair. So I look ‘stereotypically’ feminine now, but no make up, prefer men’s trousers due to being loose and having pockets. I came to appreciate breasts when I had kids and breastfed - v convenient. DH also likes them so I guess that’s good.

[LongBlobson]

@ButterflyHatched I'm interested to hear if you feel any of these experiences have much in common with your own?

I note that the in the criteria for diagnosis it states that these things have to cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

Do you think the difference between those of us who have described our experiences here, and someone who is trans, is about the level of distress caused? Or do you think it comes from something else entirely?

[ButterflyHatched]

[quote LongBlobson]@ButterflyHatched I'm interested to hear if you feel any of these experiences have much in common with your own?

I note that the in the criteria for diagnosis it states that these things have to cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

Do you think the difference between those of us who have described our experiences here, and someone who is trans, is about the level of distress caused? Or do you think it comes from something else entirely?[/quote]
Just reading through the responses now. It's really lovely to see people's personal takes on this stuff, and the candour is hugely appreciated!

I'm keen not to try and conflate my experiences with yours - that's not really what this thread is about.

More thoughts tomorrow!

[Coyoacan]

I would have jumped at the chance of changing sex if I'd been told that was possible by the responsible adults in my life.

I hated dolls and dresses, spent my life up trees and wanted the freedom my brother had. The girls were not allowed to use the gymnasium at school or play football, rugby or cricket and adventures seemed to only be for boys in the books I read.

[woopdedoodle]

I grew up in the 70's, my teachers wore velvet, bows, and high heels, my idols on tv wore long hair and makeup. And yes we all know the punch line those were just the men!

But gender stereotypes were everywhere, my parents had to fight the school to let me study physics , my sister was referred to as Mr for a whole year by a teacher who couldn't take having a female in his class room. We were not allowed to wear trousers at school until I was 17. On the other hand my metal work teacher allowed me loose in the forge and my brother was a better knitter than I was. It felt as if women had more options than our mother's had.

I worked in a science abased company, I joined and was an active member the trade union, I was called the " resident feminist " just cause I was in the room. Steel toe capped boots and no makeup short hair and taller than most of the men and all of the women people still knew what sex I was.

Looking back on my life from here through a gender lens I can see all the moments some one might have popped the idea that I was a man in my head. No one did. People had a sex, immutable, but everything else at the time was up for grabs. Society seems to have gone backwards and I don't know why.

[anothermansshoes]

I think perhaps there are two things going on that probably need to coincide to make you susceptible to the sex change idea as a girl

Firstly not fitting in
Being gender none conforming in a group is probably easier than if you feel socially isolated as a result

Second , how bad you feel about your body, how much you dislike the changes. This probably also is worse if you get a lot of harressment or worse as your body changes

[JulesRimetStillGleaming]

I heard from a practising adolescent psychologist that lesbophobia is rife in schools. Lots of girls find identifying as trans means they're more accepted than if they say they're a lesbian. I find this really sad.

[Beamur]

Lesphobia was certainly rife when I was at school, but I get the impression from my DD that it is less so now. But that could really depend on where you live and your peer group. We happen to live somewhere very LGB friendly and lots of her friends are gay or have lesbian parents.
My reflection is that I grew up in a society that was more overtly homophobic but much more tolerant of gender non conformity. My DD is growing up in a society that seems more tolerant yet really defines gender much more tightly and polices deviation from 'norms' more than I ever experienced.
I think someone upthread made a really interesting point about the difference between non conforming and dysphoria. I think the concern I hear a lot on MN especially as well as other places is that we are in a place now where treatments are available that were not to previous generations, what I fear is that children who are non conforming will be treated as if they are dysphoric and receive treatment that they don't need. This is a major unintended effect and I think the refusal to acknowledge that gender variance is often a normal part of adolescence is to blame. Doctors and therapists must be able to ask the questions needed to tell the difference.

[thirdfiddle]

I don't want to sit here sorting my behaviours as a child into stereotype buckets and totting up my score. The whole point of being gender critical is I think that's all crap.

I do remember horror at the start of puberty. I didn't want breasts, i liked being able to dress up as boy or girl characters and breasts hampered that plus they were just uncomfortable with or without bras. I certainly didn't want periods - who does? The idea of ever having sex or kids was disgusting. I don't think I'm at all out of the ordinary there.

The only time I've really liked having a female body was growing and feeding babies in my 30s, that's a pretty cool superpower.

I don't understand what gender identity believers think the connection is between sex, gender identity and stereotypes. They clearly think there is a connection, for example

• calling stereotype adoption or lack of "gender presentation".
  
• transition stories always starting with a list of ways the transitioner felt different from others of their sex
  
• people 'coming out' and first steps being stereotype changes like clothes
  
• people training themselves to adopt opposite sex stereotyped mannerisms (how to talk like a woman for TW; how to walk like a man for TM etc)
  
• gender identity stealing language that used to mean sex. Almost all try to claim man/woman he/she. Male/female in weird situation of about half of the TRA camp saying how dare you say TW aren't female and the other half saying nobody ever said TW were female.
  
• trying to sort facilities, sports etc on gender identity when the reason segregation is justified at all is sex.
  
  Present 99% of the population with a picture of a male bodied person dressed in male stereotypes and they will not agree it's a woman. Including most of the trans movement's supporters. They talk about people who are trans "making an effort", stuff like that. Meaning if not physical transition what? Stereotypes again presumably.

[Gatehouse77]

I was, and am, essentially a 'tomboy' and that's how I'd describe myself. Apart from some short lived phases, I hated (and hate) wearing dresses, skirts, make up etc. I've never worn heels. I was often mistaken for a boy growing up due to having short hair (as a teenager I'd go to a barber's because it was cheaper and a 'boy' style - even a flat top at one time!) and wearing predominantly trousers and jumpers. I didn't care. It was a mistake because I didn't conform to the 'normal'. It was never malicious or insulting.

I need played with dolls but Action Man and my survivor kit from Woolworths with gun, water bottle, knife, etc. Climbed trees, had a cowboy outfit and was freely allowed to.

Sometimes though, it wasn't appropriate to dress like that. I had school uniform. First school was co-ed and I wore the boys' uniform. Second school was all girls with a traditional tunic/skirt uniform. I wore it because those were the rules. If we had a wedding, bar mitzvah, family celebration, etc. I was expected to dress accordingly and I did, somewhat reluctantly, until I was an adult. Although trouser suits for women weren't as commonplace as now I'd definitely have opted for them.

What I hated about puberty was that it heightened my female body and the unwanted (already in existence because I was a female) attention from men. As a child I was regularly flashed at, my sister was accosted and I was followed by a man walking in a car. Just because my uniform highlighted the fact I was female - not because I was pretty or attractive. Just female.

However, none of that is about being a biological woman. Like a PP said I was uncomfortable with breasts when they first came (because they were, and still are, big!), hated getting periods because that was going to happen forever, etc. but that was temporary. Being pregnant, giving birth and breastfeeding are, for me, intrinsically part of being a woman.

In amongst all of this, I was always very maternal and nurturing towards younger people and have followed a very stereotypical path into childcare, child development, teaching, mental health and being a stay-at-home mum.

My sex has never been in question but I don't conform to the gender stereotypes in all facets. Nor do I seek to. Nor do I care what most people think. Those who's opinions I do value accept me for who I am. If I'm misgendered by a shop assistant, for whom I am one of many, who cares 🤷‍♀️ they're not that significant in my life.

The thought that my parents and I, collectively or not, could have been put on a path to making decisions before I reached maturity scares me somewhat.

However, I do believe and accept there are genuine cases of those that cannot stand to live with the body they're born with. To what extent those people need help to accept or change their bodies, I'll leave up to the professionals.

It often strike me that the fight to get away from gender stereotypes is actively reinforced by the current trend that if you don't conform you're in the wrong body. Rather than, let's keep fighting to break down those stereotypes. Make it safe for men who don't want to conform to the dress code of 'men' be safe in their spaces. the way women fought to be safe wearing trousers in women's spaces.

[JulesRimetStillGleaming]

The psychologist works in London and this was about 2 years ago. I have no reason to doubt her.

[LongBlobson]

@ButterflyHatched if you feel happy to share your experiences I'd definitely be interested.

This isn't about proving anyone 'right' or 'wrong', I just genuinely find it fascinating, I like hearing different people's stories and perspectives and I'm curious whether you feel something in common with any of the posters here.