Radio 4 Today programme - people with periods

[GCmiddle]

Did anyone hear the item just before the 7.00am news this morning? Dr Viki Male from Imperial College, London was speaking about her recently published paper in the BMJ on the need to research possible effects of the Covid vaccination on menstruation and fertility. Even though the interviewer asked her about women, women’s periods, etc, the scientist only talked about ‘people’ with periods, ‘people’ who want to get pregnant. I honestly don’t think that these educated professionals realise how silly they sound. I long for the day when an interviewer (it was Martha Kearny today) picks them up on it and directly asks them "why won’t you say women?"

[NiceGerbil]

Some men might like it. They love drawing attention to their dicks esp women!

Men: Drawing dicks all over the place since forever.

Let's go with prostate owners, people with scrotums.

[campion]

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

I switch over to Times Radio when I hear this nonsense.

Me too.
I don't find Martha Kearney a good fit for 'Today' at the best of times. Hardly ever challenges, just sticks to her list of questions when she can get a word in.

[LigandBrigand]

Yep women and transmen. Interspersed with the word female.

Men will never accept being called ejaculators as that would be uncomfortable for men who are impotent. Can you imagine the furore if we started saying all non-ejaculators are women?

That’s the argument we need to be making to men who think it’s ok to erase women.

[NiceGerbil]

So women and trans men. Tada!

This language really fucks me off. It completely ignores the reality of how periods work.

It's not more accurate at all -

Women often start/ stop periods at various points during their lives. This is normal and very widely experienced.

Reasons periods might stop-

Pregnancy
Certain types of contraception
Breast feeding
Doing loads of exercise
Eating disorders
Certain illnesses
Perimenopause
More?

What does menstruating person mean? Having a period right now?
Not having one but assume you will have one soon?
Not having one and haven't for some time (months/ longer) but you think/ know why and assume you will have one some point in future?
In perimenopause they can stop for months and woman thinks stops then has one.

So the term menstruating people is wholly inadequate.

In fact it's just a euphemism. No one thinks hmmm menstruating person am I one or not? How do I know for sure?
Everyone thinks oh it means women.
The small number of transmen around are well aware they are in this group but I have no problem with them being added. Women and transmen. Fine.

[ChristinaXYZ]

@NewMutiny

I came on to mention this.

She said 25% of people had changes to menstruation. I am wondering what % of women of menstruating age that equates to and why she didn't cite this number instead?

Or is the the case that this is what she meant but didn't say and therefore her stats are bullshit?

Sums it all up, so to speak.

[HPFA]

Going to stand up a little bit for Dr Male here.

The survey she was working on was interested in the fact that some transmen were reporting starting periods despite being on hormone treatment. I filled in the survey and yes, it was ludicrous that one of the options on gender was "two-spirit" as if that made the slightest difference to biology. But what was important to know was whether the issue affected transmen and presumably if the survey hadn't used the "correct" language they might not have had them filling it in.

So I can see why she's using the terminology, as annoying as it is.

[HPFA]

@PermanentTemporary

Thats the trouble. We're left wondering.

To be perfectly fair, menstruators is more accurate as obviously a lot of women don't menstruate any more. Menstruating women might have been more accurate and less dehumanising. But there's another question - a friend of mine who hadn't had a period for almost a year did have one post vaccination. I guess almost a year still meant she wasn't quite defined as menopausal.

I'm post menopausal, had bleeding after both doses. Had all the investigations done on the first episode.

Hoping the booster jab won't be necessary for travel - will not risk having it otherwise.

[Ritasueandbobtoo9]

I switch over to Times Radio when I hear this nonsense.

[EdgeOfACoin]

American articles are the worst. I was reading an article on the theory that there may be a third type of twin - where one egg that has split is fertilised by two separate sperm. The article (written in 2021 of course) dutifully used the terms 'birthing parent' and 'non-birthing parent'.

I mean, that doesn't even make sense. A 'non-birthing parent' could be a stepfather or a lesbian partner. They aren't responsible for sperm!

Sometimes I think we have a shot of pushing back against this language in the UK, but I am much less sure about North America.

[BethnalGreenBambinos]

John Humphreys commented on this in the Mail yesterday. www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10002773/JOHN-HUMPHRYS-Living-life-DOESNT-mean-living-ever.html. Scroll down under his main piece. He thinks words matter too.

[Dougalskeeper]

I like 'prostate-havers', it covers all males as the prostate is never removed in surgical transitioning procedures.

[JellySlice]

When penis-havers describe women as menstruators, it is entirely reasonable for women to describe them as wankers.

[BattyOrange]

@RoastChicory

Brilliant. Let’s no longer refer to trans women, but use the inclusive ‘penis-haver’.

Karma.

Or 'prostate -haver'...no escaping that one....

Dr Male though
How very apt.

[CharlieParley]

FAOD, they thought it was extremely offensive language and the teen girls were particularly outraged.

[CharlieParley]

I wish the interviewers would cone straight out and say "For the listeners unfamiliar with the concept, would you please explain why woman' is a dirty word now?" And then follow it up with "and could you also explain please, in words easy to understand for all of us, why 'man' is not a dirty word?"

I was talking to Germans who'd come for a visit in the summer and they absolutely, adamantly refused to believe that this kind of language was being used not just by gender extremists but government, politicians and healthcare professionals.

If they didn't know me so well, they'd have accused me of making it up.

[irresistibleoverwhelm]

Good idea, I’m thinking of changing all my terms from “men” and “transmen” to “penis havers and uterus-havers who identify as penis-havers”; and for transwomen, “penis-havers who identify as menstruators” or similar (‘cause face it now, which penis havers identify as “uterus-havers who are too old to menstruate”? No, they identify as young fertile “menstruators” I should think - not old dried up “uterus-havers whose uteruses are too worn out to menstruate any more”.

(Oops, for anatomical accuracy should it be “uterus-havers whose ovaries are too dried up to release eggs any more”? Dilemmas, dilemmas. I’m probably peri, can I be a “uterus-haver who identifies as a menstruator” instead? That’ll sort my cycles right out!)

Anyway, not only does my autocorrect keep wanting to change “penis-havers” to “penis-facets” - ooh, that’s good too! - but I reckon it is a really good way for us all to push back against this nasty trend of dehumanising women - and one reason why the TRAs don’t like “penis havers” is that it makes it bloody clear - excuse the pun exactly what is going on, and exactly why it’s so offensive.

It also sounds absolutely effing ridiculous.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It's an inclusive way of describing all but a tiny minority of biological males.

[RoastChicory]

Brilliant. Let’s no longer refer to trans women, but use the inclusive ‘penis-haver’.

Karma.

[megletthesecond]

Yes. It pissed me off over breakfast.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

So I started unrelentingly calling men and trans women “prostate owners”, “dick havers” etc around her , and guess what ? She absolutely hates it. In fact I’m not allowed to use these terms anymore because she thinks it’s really offensive and crass. What this shows to me is that TRAS are comfortable and used to reducing women to body parts - maybe they even unconsciously see women as a collection of reproductive capacities. But when you use this same language to talk about trans women in particular they suddenly realise how offensive and degrading it is. Women don’t deserve dignity but trans women do. There is something awful about calling a trans woman or a man a “penis haver” but calling women “menstruators” is now par for the course.

Yes, but of course it's "different", I'm sure.

[NewMutiny]

@Melroses

She was on Times Radio later on.

At the end she was saying "5% of people blah blah blah".

I was left wondering if that would be 5% of the 'people who had periods', 5% of women, or 5% of the general population. It was hard to say really.

The presenters did mention women to her so they get a

I wasn't imagining it with my stupid woman brain then?

That's fucking depressing.

[Jaysmith71]

Prejaculators, Ejaculators and Post-jaculators?

[Melroses]

I pointed out that men aren’t called testicle owners or ejaculators and while not agreeing this was due to sexism she did acknowledge that this wasn’t truly inclusive.

Have you thought about differentiating the ejaculators into those with or without reproductive capacity. So 'ejaculators of viable sperm'? Or post-fertile ejaculators?

[Melroses]

She was on Times Radio later on.

At the end she was saying "5% of people blah blah blah".

I was left wondering if that would be 5% of the 'people who had periods', 5% of women, or 5% of the general population. It was hard to say really.

The presenters did mention women to her so they get a

[Artichokeleaves]

Women don’t deserve dignity but trans women do.

This.

This attitude underpins everything.

Misogyny.