national ID: male/female/non-binary

[IamAporcupine]

My home country has decided that in our national identity cards we will now have a third option for the sex category: female, male and X, for the non-binaries.

I can't express IRL how frustrated and angry I feel as almost everyone I know is very proud that we are the first country in our continent to do this, and how inclusive we are.

So I though I could share it here...

[Callixte]

In Malta, the passport application (I've put everything in Malti/Maltese and in English, which are the two official languages and used in the forms, documents, and guidance) asks for Sess/Sex and the options are Maskili / Male OR Femminili / Female OR Ġeneru ieħor /other gender (the direct translation from Malti is "another type"; gender doesn't exist as a separate word or concept from sex) or blank.

International standards require sex on a passport and don't allow it to be blank, so people who request blank on the Maltese passport form get an X. If you see a passport with Sess/Sex = X you don't know if it's someone who believes they are neither male nor female, or someone who thinks it's none of your business.

The national identity card only offers Sess/Sex: Maskili / Male or Femminili / Female or Ieħor /Other = M, F, X.

These documents don't accurately describe sex. I'm OK with that unless someone has a reason why they should specify sex at all, but I'd rather the category be removed if not needed. The world knows that government-issued ID documents used for international travel no longer accurately describe sex in all cases, so people who need or want to make a distinction based on sex will do so by other means. In some cases, this undoes or undermines the protections for transexual people that we all in Europe rushed to put in place, Malta first .

Apparently the Netherlands have pledged to remove sex altogether from their passports within five years. I'm not sure if they are stupid or if they have inside info that the international standards will change before then.

[IamAporcupine]

@EyesOpening

But my guess is they actually have no clue what they are doing.
The president's words speak volumes.

Was "The president said yesterday: 'the State should have no saying on its citizens' sexual orientation' " in relation to having an X for your sex then?

Yep

[EyesOpening]

But my guess is they actually have no clue what they are doing.
The president's words speak volumes.

Was "The president said yesterday: 'the State should have no saying on its citizens' sexual orientation' " in relation to having an X for your sex then?

[Igneococcus]

I recently filled in the application form for a new German passport for dd and the options were:

Geschlecht/Gender:
-maennlich/male
-weiblich/female
-unbestimmt/undefined

I have no idea what would be entered into the actual passport if you chose undefined. I should have asked the woman from the Konsulat (you have to apply in person for a German passport) how often they see that option ticked.

[IamAporcupine]

@GNCQ

You're either a male non binary person or a female non binary person, so the options should surely be

Sex: M/F.
Gender: _____ (optional)
That would be properly inclusive of all the great varieties of gender.

Argentina adding an X, they're basically denying the existence of sex. They're saying M/F is about genderwoo and they're fine with that.

Could not agree more
But mt guess is they actually have no clue what they are doing.
The president's words speak volumes.

Also, even the non-binary were not happy about the X

[IamAporcupine]

@EyesOpening

It's like having a category of height and having the options of answer as yes or no

totally agree!

[GNCQ]

You're either a male non binary person or a female non binary person, so the options should surely be

Sex: M/F.
Gender: _ (optional)
That would be properly inclusive of all the great varieties of gender.


Argentina adding an X, they're basically denying the existence of sex. They're saying M/F is about genderwoo and they're fine with that.

[PrincessNutella]

There's two kinds of people binary and nonbinary oops I guess there's a binary except nobody is actually nonbinary so I guess there isn't a binary except actually there are only two sexes so there actually is a binary. Sigh. It's so confusing.

[KittenKong]

Progressive in what way exactly? Getting sex confused with gender looks like a pretty basic gaff.

[MishyJDI]

congratulations to Argentina. Great to see a progressive country!

[EyesOpening]

It's like having a category of height and having the options of answer as yes or no

[EyesOpening]

but if having your sex/gender isn't useful, then what's the point and if it is, how does having X help ID you?

[IamAporcupine]

@EyesOpening

Remind me what an ID card is for again

That's a good point! I left my country >20 years ago so I had to remind myself (and ask!).
You use your ID card to prove your age, to open a bank account, to vote.
I believe the UK uses driving licenses in a similar way.

I am still not sure how much it is used within the public health system ; I am trying to find out.

[JellySlice]

Quite a good idea. Instant identification of people for whom ideology is more important than correct medical treatment or appropriate allocation of resources. Should save a lot of money, time and resources. Almost Darwinian.

[EyesOpening]

Remind me what an ID card is for again

[Mulletsaremisunderstood]

I can't express IRL how frustrated and angry I feel as almost everyone I know is very proud that we are the first country in our continent to do this, and how inclusive we are.

Interestingly, this is very common. For some reason it's so important to be seen to be super progressive and inclusive. When in fact it's regressive nonsense. My country is the same, it's infuriating. All the while we have a shameful history of treating women like crap.

Like, what does it even mean, is there an accurate definition? And how do you measure it accurately? I think the comment about sexual orientation is very telling - it shows how confused people are, they think it's a sexuality, when it isn't. It's simply a declaration, nothing to do with sexuality.

Anyway, I sympathise OP, the ridiculousness is spreading.

[IamAporcupine]

@highame

I am more interested in whether there are any consequences IRL. I notice it is identity cards and not passports, so they know how far they can go. Will it make so much difference on an identity card? Have they had to change other things to accommodate this, such has health records. Interesting to see what happens

I thought so too, but I have now heard that it is both national identity cards and passports! Is that even legal?

[IamAporcupine]

[quote ArabellaScott]Madness, OP. I'm sorry.

It will be scary interesting to see how the effects of this play out. Especially in the mid to longer term, if it lasts that long.

I made a thread on feminism in Argentina a while back (- I have no memory of how I fell down that particular rabbit hole) (apologies for any errors):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4281846-Feminism-in-Argentina[/quote]
Thanks for the link, I had not seen the thread!

[IamAporcupine]

@NancyDrawed

And of course non binary is not a SEX ffs, just as male and female are not 'genders'

I know...!
Noone seems to worry too much about accuracies anymore. The most important thing is to be seen as 'being inclusive' and 'giving NB/T people their rights' etc etc

The president said yesterday: 'the State should have no saying on its citizens' sexual orientation'

[KittenKong]

I enjoy the ‘Don’t know’ option - or if I have time, the open text box option. They never answer though...

[FightingtheFoo]

I've started ticking Non Binary when it's an option on forms.

I spend most of my time in trousers, no bra, no make-up, so obviously I can't possible identify as female.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[merrymouse]

I think they need to explain why they only need sex on some people's passports, or why they aren't asking for other information about people's identities - 'loves gardening, hates bananas'.

[NancyDrawed]

And of course non binary is not a SEX ffs, just as male and female are not 'genders'

[NancyDrawed]

@TedImgoingmad

I sometimes wonder, if everyone started ticking the non binary box, how long would it be before, a) the govt and authorities started having kittens about the lack of adequate data, and b) the special ones started feeling a bit less special and started looking for some other way to make their sad lives look interesting?

I have wondered the same.

Seeing as most of the population are not hyper masculine or feminine in outward appearance or behaviour, surely nearly everyone falls under the label 'non binary' (if they believe in such labels, I don't)

[highame]

I am more interested in whether there are any consequences IRL. I notice it is identity cards and not passports, so they know how far they can go. Will it make so much difference on an identity card? Have they had to change other things to accommodate this, such has health records. Interesting to see what happens