Ireland will be teaching children from age 4 that you have a gender identity

[MnaWomanIreland]

I want to cry. Are we Canada?

[Irishmom7]

Took my complaint to the school board and had a reply today saying they see no problem with the current pshe course and that they have to teach gender identity in order to acknowledge the lived experience of children and families in the school.

So I’ve fired back a reply saying that as part of the LGBTQ+ community, our family is gender free and our lived experience of having no gender identity separate to our sexed bodies is completely unrepresented by the school.

I’m expecting a nod and a smile. And probably fewer play dates.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@thepiratequeen - In Ds's Secondary school they remain in the classroom but do homework, which they are happy enough with.

It obviously varies by school. Ours is a bit Fr Ted - you know the episode with the milk float where one of the priests asks "is there anything to be said for another mass"?

The problem with then sitting at the back of the classroom is they can still hear it all and if they are using AC materials, it's quite difficult to ignore.

[thepiratequeen]

@oldwomanwhoruns

Interesting link, *@thepiratequeen* , I had not realised that 'white passing as black' was such a Thing.
I find the race thing so much more understandable, though, than the gender equivalent. After all, mixed race people exist, fact.
But mixed sex people don't exist. You are either XX or XY.
Why are schools confusing our children with this nonsense...

The thing is that she wasn't mixed race, she was white. She later said she identified as black.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/16/transracial-definition-destructive-rachel-dolezal-spokane-naacp

The crayon in the book identifies as blue, and the message at the end of the book is that crayon really is blue (this is being taught as part of gender identity to 7 and 8 year old children).
Why is crayon right, but Rachel wrong?

[Kotatsu]

Having read the booklet (which I think must be the 6th class version of what my 5th classer just had - to his horror) it's not that bad - one page, in a big booklet with much more attention demanding things (it actually has a PIV diagram. My eldest is going to be scandalised, even though he knows it academically, he doesn't let himself think about knowing it...)

^However, a small number of people may not feel that what they are called at birth (boy or girl) really fits them and may want to explore their gender identity to find out what is right for them. If a person has a deep sense that their gender identity is different from the gender they were given at birth, they may describe themselves as
transgender.^

Some people who are transgender may want to live their lives as boys, some as girls, some somewhere in between and some as no gender at all. If you have questions about your gender identity, puberty can be a particularly confusing time. Your body may be changing in ways that don’t match your sense of yourself.

Remember, it’s great that you’re starting to understand your own body and your own feelings.Take your time; there’s no need for you to be under any pressure to make decisions about this.

If you’re questioning your gender identity, talk to a trusted adult in your life, including your parents, wider family and teachers. They will be able to find you the right information and support and give you all the reassurance and love you need.

Trans stuff is out in the world right now - they have to say something about it, and that is as non-commital, as wait and see, talk to trusted adults about it as you could hope for in the current climate I think.

The only trouble will be if right-on teachers took it upon themselves to expand on it I'd say.

[oldwomanwhoruns]

Interesting link, @thepiratequeen , I had not realised that 'white passing as black' was such a Thing.
I find the race thing so much more understandable, though, than the gender equivalent. After all, mixed race people exist, fact.
But mixed sex people don't exist. You are either XX or XY.
Why are schools confusing our children with this nonsense...

[thepiratequeen]

@OchonAgusOchonOh
In Ds's Secondary school they remain in the classroom but do homework, which they are happy enough with.
It would be very common for children to opt out of Religious Education both at primary and secondary, in my experience. Rse would probably be more unusual as most parents would want their children to be given this education, but would expect it to be factually based. Few would be aware that their 8 year old child would be reading books where red crayon knew that they were really blue, and at the end of the book they are right, red crayon IS blue. It actually reminds me of this case, which is probably not the intention.
www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2020-10-08/when-scholars-and-activists-pretend-to-be-black-an-essay

[oldwomanwhoruns]

An interesting insight into growing up under totalitarianism, @CharlieParley ! That's exactly where we are now. However did we get here??

RSE should be about the normal, the biological, the usual. Not the exceptions, at this stage. Why the f* are they introducing paraphelias into the curriculum?

Any subject, you teach the basics. You get on to the exceptions later. Much later. Why should RSE be any different? Why is this one issue being pulled out as worthy of special magical treatment?

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@thepiratequeen - I would imagine in Secondary they would have a free class, which most teenagers would be delighted with.

Based on my experience (my own and friends' kids), that is highly unlikely to be facilitated. Most schools haven't the staff to supervise small numbers of kids for random free classes (different if it's a timetabled free class). In my kids' school, if you want them to opt out, you need to make alternative arrangements as the school won't. With religion, they make it as awkward as possible. They may be a bit more obliging for RSE in terms of timing of classes at the start or end of a day.

[thepiratequeen]

RDR should be RSE in my post above.

[thepiratequeen]

www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40280387.html
If a school has a religious ethos it appears that they have the right to opt out of certain areas of the RDR curriculum. This would apply to the a lot of primary and secondary schools in Ireland.

[CharlieParley]

I would treat this the same way we treated the relentless teaching of religion at my kids' schools. We tell them some people believe this stuff, that they can choose to believe this too if they want and that belief serves a number of purposes (some positive) for many people but that their mum and dad look to science for answers and that tells us this, this, this and this.

Which has meant that unlike me at their age the kids are very tolerant of religious beliefs but the one thing they understand above all is that they are free to disbelieve.

It also meant that when my kids got taught the doctrine of gender identity in school, they didn't believe it. Not that we knew this was coming, but when you have lively discussions about gender being socially constructed and imposed rather than innate, about biology, the limitations of modern medicine, about neurology etc it leads to kids looking at the gender wang with considerable scepticism.

Or view it as "bollocks" as my then 11-year old put it.

And yes, I agree, it can be stigmatising to be taken out of religious education. The kids asked us not to even though it would have been my preference.

But if you are comfortable talking to your children about how and why the doctrine of gender identity is no more or less than any other (religious) belief, you can counteract the indoctrination.

What you unfortunately cannot do, which we have been able to do with religious education until now is tell the kids that as long as they debate respectfully they can disagree with their teacher about any religious tenets of any faith.

But I grew up under a totalitarian regime, so managing the unsayable nature of dissent in regard to the doctrine of gender identity is a mere matter of remembering my childhood rules.

Never speak your mind in front of strangers. Never disagree with a person in authority in public. Never fall for the friendly inquiry. Never trust that your words won't be reported.

Fucking horrific that this is happening in a supposedly democratic state, but it is what it is. (If we're talking navigating this indoctrination in this climate in regard to the kids. If we're talking about resisting, that's a different matter.)

[thepiratequeen]

@MnaWomanIreland
That would probably vary depending on the school.
In my Dc's primary school, it would be normal for children to opt out of religious education, Communion and Confirmation preparation etc. It is definitely not seen as odd at all.
I would imagine in Secondary they would have a free class, which most teenagers would be delighted with.
But, of course they wouldn't actually have to opt out of the entire RSE lessons, just the part that deals with gender identity. Most of the rest of the course is quite good.

[Gucci1961]

@Mylittlepony374

Where can I see details of this? I have one about to start school, I'd like to be prepared. I've spent her first 4 years reinforcing that her brother can wear dresses and still be a boy, she can choose clothes from the ”boys” section and still be a girl etc etc so I'll be vocal in pushback on this.

I know, it's so annoying isn't it! Look at Harry Styles.. he's a great example. he can wear pink, or pearls, without needing to tell us he's a woman.

I agree that the average board of governors at a typical irish national school is going to roll their eyes hard at this.

My dc2 is at an ET though. I was asking him recently, do they have chess club, and he said ''I don't think so'' and my dd1 pipes up 'no but they have trans chess' and they both shared a chuckle. So he's used to the word trans being bandied about relentlessly. I hope I'm not offending anybody but from one extreme to the other ykwim.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

If the opt-out is anything like the secondary school my kids went to wrt opt-out for religion, it won't be practical.

Classes never scheduled for first or last class (this is policy). No supervision provided so a parent has to come in, sign them out and then sign them back in as they are not allowed to be on the school premises unsupervised.

When my eldest started there, you could send a note in to allow them to sign themselves out and back in but they changed it so a parent, or another adult you need to register with the school, has to physically sign them in and out.

[MnaWomanIreland]

@thepiratequeen

At least in Ireland you can opt out too, but it is so contradictory that it is staggering that it made it into the curriculum in the first place.

How in practice do you opt out? A 13 year old who didn’t participate In a class all the way through primary will be seen as ‘odd’.

Then in secondary - It would be difficult to have a teen sit out.

[thepiratequeen]

At least in Ireland you can opt out too, but it is so contradictory that it is staggering that it made it into the curriculum in the first place.

[FrancesGumm]

I am in East Sussex , UK - and my DD is in Yr5 age 9.
I have just received the lesson plans and she will be taught gender identity as fact - ie a transgender boy is a boy born with a penis but ‘feels like a girl’ - I am going to go back to the teacher to discuss (rant) . What does a girl feel like! ? In the govt guidelines it says that gender stereotypes should not be pushed - so how else are they going to explain that a boy feels like a girl ?

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

It's a very long time since I did this stuff but I always thought the Immaculate Conception was that of Mary herself?

It is. Apparently they couldn't let the mother of god be born with the sin that they impose on all babies' souls before they are born, so she was conceived without the sin on her soul.

The claim is then that she had a virgin birth (and conception) so no sex to get pregnant.

[SmokedDuck]

It's a very long time since I did this stuff but I always thought the Immaculate Conception was that of Mary herself?

Yes. And involved a father and mother in the normal way.

[Abhannmor]

@Babdoc

Irishmom7, as a Christian, I find your post offensive and a total misrepresentation.
When Gabriel explained God’s plan to Mary, she consented - “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it unto me according to thy word”.
And there was no physical sex involved, let alone your crude description. It was an immaculate conception by the Holy Spirit.
If you must insult my religion, at least check the details first.

It's a very long time since I did this stuff but I always thought the Immaculate Conception was that of Mary herself?

[FatCatThinCat]

My 6 year old son was taught this at school here in Sweden. He told me his teacher says that boys can change into girls if that's what they thought they were. I asked him if he thought that were true. He didn't want to answer at first but then admitted that he thought it was daft and not possible.

[fireproofwitch]

I am just reading through the link from the OP.
The section for 1st and 2nd classes ( ages 7 and 8) starts out teaching about stereotypes and how it is okay not to conform.
But then it goes on to teach that some people might look like a boy on the outside but feel like a girl on the inside.
What does "feeling like a girl on the inside" actually mean? Because it is being taught as fact, but is completely meaningless unless you accept that the stereotypes are actually real.
It appears very contradictory.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

Thankfully my youngest is in leaving cert but it's really worrying that they are peddling this nonsense. It is so regressive. Gender stereotyping has been getting more extreme for quite some time. Things like gendered lego, for example.

It was always acceptable for girls to be tomboys but we always had a long way to go for boys. Forcing gender stereotypes on girls in order to allow boys the freedom to express a more "feminine" side is really not the way to go. Getting rid of the notion of gender entirely and accepting any and all presentations, while still maintaining sex based protections, is what we should be aiming for.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Babdoc - And there was no physical sex involved, let alone your crude description. It was an immaculate conception by the Holy Spirit. If you must insult my religion, at least check the details first.

Except that's not what the term "immaculate conception" means...

[VexedofVirginiaWater]

Not just Ireland - UK primary schools in my area can have an equality charter which mentions gender, gender identity and sexual orientation - but not sex.