Literal stage violence

[AvocadoBathroom]

twitter.com/TheStage/status/1385194695274418181?s=20

"What you do when you cast a cis man – put him in a dress, and label him as trans – is you let violence happen to a transgender woman in the future. A member of your audience will see a man in a dress, read your programme, and will think: ‘Haha, that’s a man in a dress’, and you are allowing that violence."

If this is the case then drag is transphobic right unless it's a trans person dressing up as the opposite sex? And so are pantomime dames? Someone needs to complain asap to Drag Race and get that show canceled immediately because for years it has cis men dressing as women for the entertainment and laughs. Some of those men will be gay but they MUST say they are women now or they shouldn't be allowed to dress as women for cheap laughs and fabulous Mac makeup?

[Vargas]

I thought pronouns were given as subject/object, wtf does they/she mean? Have I missed something?

'They give the award for Hyperbole of the Year to she'

[Defaultname]

Enter Stage Left(ies).

Love that "yes.it is a godam threat". Very American,. Land sakes.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

@Vargas

I thought pronouns were given as subject/object, wtf does they/she mean? Have I missed something?

'They give the award for Hyperbole of the Year to she'

Pronouns are usually given in that format, except for when they're not

They/she means they would like to be referred to by they/them or she/her.

[Defaultname]

When I'm 'doin' the Bard' (of your actual Avon, I insist that I do be called Thee/Thou/Thine.
Though some people insist on calling me a Thit.

[cakedays]

@BraveBananaBadge

Having read the letter now, it makes even less sense. This is an absolute doozy:

Whoa. That's a really good one.

Ironically, here in the actual fact world, Havelock Ellis, the man who made a career out of early 20thc, sexology, practically invented "inversion" theory, and coined the idea that gay men were really spiritually women, and that lesbians were really inverted men with "manly hearts beating in a woman's breast", was an actual genuine absolutely raging white eugenicist, who wrote books about how the weak-minded poor and inferior races should be "bred out" of the population. [He was also impotent, apart from a fetish for women urinating on him. Nice chap.]

As always, these people never get their facts right!

[AfternoonToffee]

@BraveBananaBadge

Having read the letter now, it makes even less sense. This is an absolute doozy:

So many words just to say "re-education this way"

[IvyTwines2]

@BraveBananaBadge

Having read the letter now, it makes even less sense. This is an absolute doozy:

I really do think this generation is suffering badly from the lack of a Young Ones, Monty Python, John Waters, South Park or Viz. Maybe there are some Gen Z satirists quietly beavering away and will suddenly burst forth with the 2020s' Life of Brian. Well, I live in hope.

[WoolOfBat]

I spent ages last night trying to get DD to understand and use the correct pronouns (possessive, reflective etc). Then we went through a number of questions and she still got some wrong.

Do you think I can argue that she is an empath who got a sense of a certain non binary trait of the person in the example?

Or that using traditional she/he is triggering for her so she needs to use “they” only?

She dd is 9. Thoughts?

[peacefulVistas]

Instead of the historical and well documented gender identities that pre-date notions of binary gender invented in the 19th century by white eugenicists

This particular line fascinates me.
It seems to be suggesting that the tying of gender to sexual dimorphism is a relatively new phenomena and prior to C19, people had a variety of established gender identities to choose from?
And these are well documented ?

Perhaps the scope of the statement is limited to the Theatre world though.
Which inherent in it's very nature is the dressing up and inhabiting lifes that are not ones own
And this along with the various prohibitions on the sex of actors through time has led to an accepted blurring of traditional gender roles for stage folk.

But I'd love an explanation from someone who understands what they mean

[BrizzleGirl]

What a crock of shit.

[AfternoonToffee]

But I'd love an explanation from someone who understands what they mean.

Don't look at me.

[NeedNewKnees]

I can translate it for you, peace -

“Look at MEEEEEEEEEEE”

[sleepyhead]

@peacefulVistas

Instead of the historical and well documented gender identities that pre-date notions of binary gender invented in the 19th century by white eugenicists

This particular line fascinates me.
It seems to be suggesting that the tying of gender to sexual dimorphism is a relatively new phenomena and prior to C19, people had a variety of established gender identities to choose from?
And these are well documented ?

Perhaps the scope of the statement is limited to the Theatre world though.
Which inherent in it's very nature is the dressing up and inhabiting lifes that are not ones own
And this along with the various prohibitions on the sex of actors through time has led to an accepted blurring of traditional gender roles for stage folk.

But I'd love an explanation from someone who understands what they mean

When you actually look in to any of the examples they give - when they actually deign to give examples (or you know, bother to ask anyone who's actually a member of a culture that operates with a third gender category), it always turns out to be a highly gender-conforming/homophobic society which copes with divergence from societal norms by creating a new category for "not man enough" or "not woman enough".

While I applaud societies who accommodated difference in a less violent way than burn the witch/hang the sodomite, it's still putting people in boxes based on behaviours rather than considering that a range of behaviours are normal to both sexes.

[BraveBananaBadge]

Elsewhere in the letter they say something along the lines of 'casting someone trans after being called out for transphobia is just optics', which somewhat suggests there's no good faith way of improving things to them save handing everything over to their minority of a minority group, which is untenable really. I don't see how this is helping to find the middle ground.

Also blaming 'white eugenicists' for the existence of a gender binary which didn't exist before (as is well documented!) is just setting up a handy way of being able to shut down anyone calling them out by accusing them of being racist on top of everything else, surely.

To be honest I understand the frustration in the letter about having given their time and experience at the R&D stage only for it to go no further. It can't be nice and it must take its toll, but it happens all the time in the industry and I hope these silly bullying tactics get the short shrift they deserve.

[cakedays]

@peacefulVistas

Instead of the historical and well documented gender identities that pre-date notions of binary gender invented in the 19th century by white eugenicists

This particular line fascinates me.
It seems to be suggesting that the tying of gender to sexual dimorphism is a relatively new phenomena and prior to C19, people had a variety of established gender identities to choose from?
And these are well documented ?

Perhaps the scope of the statement is limited to the Theatre world though.
Which inherent in it's very nature is the dressing up and inhabiting lifes that are not ones own
And this along with the various prohibitions on the sex of actors through time has led to an accepted blurring of traditional gender roles for stage folk.

But I'd love an explanation from someone who understands what they mean

No, its all complete bollocks and completely confused.

As I said upthread, it was actually the white (genuinely eugenicist) sexologists of the late 19thc. and early 20thc. who were the main proponents of early varieties of gender identity theories like "inversion" (a proto-trans load of gobbledegook which claimed that homosexual people had been born with the souls of the other gender/sex).

Inversion theory was rightly dumped by later gay and lesbian activists and theories, but it's one of the main antecedents of gender ideology. Gender identity ideologues typically have a very confused sense of the history of these ideas (having mostly read them online rather than in any actual books, and certainly not have actually read any of the actual writings). So they do come out with some rubbish.

[peacefulVistas]

having mostly read them online rather than in any actual books, and certainly not have actually read any of the actual writings

I find this particular aspect of modern discourse heartbreaking
Every source imaginable is now just a few key presses away, there's just no excuse.
There's barely the need to have to physically sit in libraries anymore, waiting months for the inter-libray loan to arrive for that one thing you desperately need.
But we've ended up with sloppy thought and increasingly distorted messaging

[DdraigGoch]

violence
/ˈvʌɪəl(ə)ns/
noun
behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

literal
/ˈlɪt(ə)r(ə)l/
adjective
taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or exaggeration.

How laughing at Christopher Biggins playing Widow Twankey constitutes "literal violence" is beyond me.

[terryleather]

Yet another power-play, this time of the "if you don't give me career ops, I will have a major tantrum and it will be literal violence because narcissism reasons."
Tiresome.

[DdraigGoch]

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

They mean that not respecting someone's gender identity inside your own head is metaphorical violence,

I've never found it (possibly a deletion) but 2 to 3 years ago there was a thread about diversity training (possibly recorded or reported by someone) with some interesting observations by the trainer. The trainer claimed to be able to detect when people might be using the 'right words' and respecting pronouns etc. but still enacting violence through wrong think inside their heads.

Presumably the eye-rolls give it away.

[IvyTwines2]

Bit rich for a group who support an ideology that is currently rendering hundreds of neurodiverse young people infertile to talk about eugenics.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Casting seems to have become really difficult.

Quote from an actor's twitter thread this week:

found out I got declined to audition for a trans guy role bc my bio says "nonbinary" and I know we're allll trying to figure out how to cast trans roles respectfully but becoming so rigid that trans ppl LOSE opportunities is not it

[cakedays]

Purgatory that is truly dotty. But of course when the "cis" people do do what they're told with all this convoluted and contradictory batshittery, and it produces effects no-one foresaw, then there's the inevitable chorus of "well I told you to do X, but it wasn't REALLY what I MEANT...."

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

But aren't trans men men? So how would a non binary person be able to play a man?

[IvyTwines2]

@cakedays

Purgatory that is truly dotty. But of course when the "cis" people do do what they're told with all this convoluted and contradictory batshittery, and it produces effects no-one foresaw, then there's the inevitable chorus of "well I told you to do X, but it wasn't REALLY what I MEANT...."

Well if that 'cis' person had gone ahead and cast a 'non binary' as 'trans', the actor would probably have ended up facing a barrage of online hate and the 'cancellation' by Tabby and co. of whatever show they were in, so it's a lucky escape really.

[FrankButchersDickieBow]

But Eddie Izzard who has pronouns she and her, will make his money by solely acting in boy mode. The roles he play, as far as I am aware, are cis men.

By their reckoning, EI should be banned from playing cis men and should only be able to play transgender roles?