Unite Unions and Many Other LGBT Organisations Lobby Government to Lower the Age of Consent

[gardenbird48]

A large number of organisations led by IGLA World (International Lesbian Gay Bisexual Trans and Intersex Organisation) are promoting what they call a ‘Feminist Declaration’

According to Legal Feminist there are provisions (fairly well buried) urging governments to ‘eliminate... laws limiting legal capacity of adolescents... to provide consent to sex.’

While the Women’s Human Rights Campaign (in Australia nb this is being lobbied in the UK as well) does not want teenagers labelled sex offenders for consensual non-abusive sexual activity with their peers ... there is concern that these demands would remove the ability to protect children from exploitation by adults and older adolescents.

Stonewall and Mermaids (plus Proud Trust etc) are signatories to this. I haven’t read the whole document but I trust Legal Feminist and they are livid about this.

We need to be reinforcing safeguards not removing them - who will benefit from this? It won’t be the girls.

Did we see the recent case of the young girl abused by firefighters in France was undermined by their low (or lack of?) age of consent.

feministlegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Media-Release-on-CSW-and-ILGA-_28-Mar-2021-1.pdf

[NiceGerbil]

The age of the other person is a factor with underage sex along with grooming coercion etc etc

Law is couple posts up and CPS has a lot as well

[gardenbird48]

I remember reading an interview with Peter Tatchell where he talked to a 14 yr old boy who apparently had a 29 year old boyfriend. Peter was arguing that the 14 yr old was mature enough to enjoy a full sexual relationship with this man. As I remember the 14 yr old had also been sexually active for several years (but couldn't swear to that, it might have been another article).

He has now updated the article to pretend that he really meant children of a similar age shouldn't be criminalised for having sex but I read the original version.

I think Peter Tatchell has also advised the Irish government on RSE in schools - I believe he was behind the advice not to allow parents to know anything about the content of the curriculum. For some reason I think he may have been involved in discussions with the UK government but I'm not sure about that and obviously his advice has not been taken as parents are allowed to see the RSE content now.

[ScreamingBeans]

Re not disclosing AIDS, I think you should disclose if you've got a cold or Athletes foot FGS

It's common manners isn't it.

WTF is this worship of the pursuit of orgasm above all.

[NiceGerbil]

I've been vaguely mulling this over for a bit and it's not really on topic.

I was thinking about how when secondary sort of age girls are sexually coerced, exploited. There is a common response to reject that anything is wrong. To insist that they are in control of what's going on etc. When girls or women are raped there is a common reaction of promiscuity. To take some control back etc. Maybe to minimise what happened to themselves. It's just sex no big deal type thing.

It strikes me that I quite often read about gay men becoming sexually active with older men when they are very young. That having been paid for sex is something that comes up a lot.

These things that I've read always talk about these experiences in positive terms. Feeling attractive. Easy money. It was all great fun. That sort of thing.

I wonder if some of the stuff that gets pushed around consent and sex work, from some men, is an abuse reaction. These histories seem to be raised often to support lowering age of consent/ legal sex work.

I wonder if some of it that same kind of. Minimising but in a different way.

Of course plenty wanting this will be bog standard child abusers.

But I just can't believe that it's that brilliant to have eg your first serious sexual experience with a middle aged bloke in a bog, or to work as a prostitute.

Young boys are vulnerable.

I may be way off the mark though :)

[SmokedDuck]

Working as a prostitute isn't great for anyone IMO including teen boys.

There does seem to be a significant element within the gay community of men becoming sexually active as teens, and not just with other teens but almost a sense of an initiation, and it seems to be something quite a number of older men look back on without seeing it as problematic. It's not the whole by any stretch but it seems to be enough that it's a known thing, even among those who don't behave that way.

Enough so that those men will often see attempts to stop that kind of thing as almost anti-gay. They see it as an important part of gay male sexuality somehow.

It's a bit of a trope to say that in heterosexual sexual relationships men and women balance out the more extreme sexual tendencies of the other sex to some extent, while in same sex relationships it's as if female sexuality or male sexuality are expressed in an extra intense way. But I would say there is some truth to it and maybe that's where this comes from.

[FlyPassed]

Can I just reiterate @MissBarbary's point: wtaf has this got to do with unions?!

[gardenbird48]

@FlyPassed

Can I just reiterate *@MissBarbary*'s point: wtaf has this got to do with unions?!

Exactly. When I first looked at it I though that it was just the LGBTQ groups that are part of the unions but then I realised that the actual Unite Union is in as well - does that mean they are effectively paying double subscription from their members subscriptions?

I guess, if we are being generous, the unions themselves may not be explicitly supporting this specific point in this Declaration BUT this is where the Trojan Horse effect comes in - find a cause that has general public support and slip in the unpalatable bits under the radar -' it's just paperwork' (see below for context of this quote).

The unions and all of these big name organisations will lend the weight of their name and their members to put pressure on the government to introduce this. As I mentioned before, they are already doing it with the 'Conversion Therapy' legislation also being promoted by this organisation.

'It's just paperwork' refers to a Baroness Ruth Hunt/Lil OJ interview where they were laughing merrily at concerns re. reform of the GRA/Self-id - 'it's [the GRC] just paperwork'.
As we have discovered more recently however, a GRC is not 'just paperwork', it guarantees a convicted male criminal who holds one direct placement in a women's prison, no questions asked, no 'risk assessment'.

[FlyPassed]

100% @gardenbird48!

And then certain activists will be say "look at all these [cough cough] reputable orgs that support xyz thing, you're all just evil old boomer vulva people and completely out of touch, times have changed and you just want uterus folx chained to the kitchen sink because you miss the 1950s" etc etc. And then my head explodes!

[Tibtom]

I am uncomfortable with just saying 'they are both 14 so it is ok' especially when you place that in the context of schools rife with misogyny, harassment and abuse.

[SunsetBeetch]

Eliminate all laws and policies that punish or criminalize .. . HIV transmission non-disclosure and exposure

This is so counter productive. Surely this is going to increase the stigma surrounding HIV and make people lose trust?

[FrankButchersDickieBow]

WTF is this worship of the pursuit of orgasm above all

I was thinking the same. Everything seems to boil down to being able to fuck whoever you want with no consequences.

What the actual fuck is happening???

[JellySlice]

Do these organisations have a position on child marriage?

[JellySlice]

@FrankButchersDickieBow

WTF is this worship of the pursuit of orgasm above all

I was thinking the same. Everything seems to boil down to being able to fuck whoever you want with no consequences.

What the actual fuck is happening???

Does the fuckee get a say in this? Because it does seem to be about fuckers and fuckees, not about the shared mutual pleasure of people having sex with each other.

[Notoriouslynotnotious]

There does seem to be a significant element within the gay community of men becoming sexually active as teens, and not just with other teens but almost a sense of an initiation, and it seems to be something quite a number of older men look back on without seeing it as problematic. It's not the whole by any stretch but it seems to be enough that it's a known thing, even among those who don't behave that way.

We have a very high profile Senator in Ireland, David Norris who has many times over the years made cases for pedestary as aspirational for young gay male teens. He is in every other way an influence for positive change in Ireland but on this matter I believe he doesn’t fully understand the implications for abuse of the power differential that actually happens in these circumstances and the implications that has on the psychology of the teen. He is totally blinded by his own experiences as a gay teen and cannot see the bigger picture.

[Zinco]

I am uncomfortable with just saying 'they are both 14 so it is ok' especially when you place that in the context of schools rife with misogyny, harassment and abuse.


Yes, people being pressured into sex isn't a new issue by any means, but when you add in the liberalisation of sexual attitudes (I think often a good thing) and having pornography widely available (I'm not a fan of censorship myself), then maybe the Mary Whitehouse types had something of a point about the direction that society was heading in.

Also, kids can be completely unethical bastards.

[Zinco]

definitely an end to 16 and 17 year olds marrying


That must be very rare these days anyway? (I'm guessing.)

Personally I would want to look at the data and compare it to marriage in general, how successful such marriages were.

[FluffMagnet]

Given "sex games gone wrong" is already used as a defence by (murdering) men, God help us all if they sweep away all legal constraints about how much physical damage one can consent to.

[NiceGerbil]

And the fact that coercion etc exists in teen relationships is the reason the law is in place, with specific provisions for those situations.

Reducing the age of consent, or making it prosecution no question, are not good ideas.

In England and Wales under 13 is no excuses in law.

(In fact of course loads of sex offences at all at ages happen and there is no response but that's a different problem).

Does anyone know if there are any orgs for gay men looking at the prevalence of underage sex and prostitution?

[SmokedDuck]

@Tibtom

I am uncomfortable with just saying 'they are both 14 so it is ok' especially when you place that in the context of schools rife with misogyny, harassment and abuse.

I guess the question is whether it is necessary to legally proscribe everything we don't want to happen.

It's not like two underage kids having consensual sex are ever actually charged with anything, it just wouldn't be a useful way to address it, at least that's what most would think.

One of the weird effects of social liberalism is that it can drive some rather invasive legislation. Because we accept pluralism we tend to say, everything that is legal we should be non-judgemental about. Things where there is a real problem and social consensus on that, are the only things we make law about

But in doing so we create a situation where there isn't a lot of social force to stand against things that we don't like, but which aren't ideally dealt with criminally. The law starts to be looked at as the main explication of the social consensus on morality.

[CuthbertDibbleandGrubb]

@Zinco forced marriages are sometimes a 16 or 17 year old young woman and an older man. That's why although it will not eliminate all forced marriages, it will be a step in the right direction.

[flyingfoxkins]

was thinking about how when secondary sort of age girls are sexually coerced, exploited. There is a common response to reject that anything is wrong. To insist that they are in control of what's going on etc. When girls or women are raped there is a common reaction of promiscuity. To take some control back etc. Maybe to minimise what happened to themselves. It's just sex no big deal type thing

I seem to remember Rochdale and how some of those girls were described as promiscuous and wanting the attention. They were young teenagers and some of them extremely vulnerable.

[NiceGerbil]

'But in doing so we create a situation where there isn't a lot of social force to stand against things that we don't like, but which aren't ideally dealt with criminally. The law starts to be looked at as the main explication of the social consensus on morality.'

Yes that's true but I don't think there's much of an appetite in England and Wales to move the age of consent up.

[NiceGerbil]

Flying fox

I think child prostitutes was one of the terms used

The girls were groomed young. Below 16. Sometimes below 13 (the no excuses age).

The police, social services etc saw they girls not as exploited children but as. Child prostitutes. Girls who were off the rails.

The abuse these girls were subjected to was extreme.

The 'authorities' didn't care. The original woman who tried to raise the alarm was sacked.

I see no issues with the current law in terms of the writing. It covers a host of situations. Coercion etc.

It is right that there is latitude not to prosecute similarly ages teens in consensual relationships.

The BIG problem here is not the law. Rape convictions are at an all time low. Women are not infrequently murdered by men who had been reported to the police multiple times. Girls are still seen in society as somehow well older than their years and sexually knowing.

The law in fine.

The application of the law, and the view in society of both victims and perpetrators. That's what needs attention because it's fucked up.

[Notoriouslynotnotious]

Well said @NiceGerbil

[NiceGerbil]

'Because we accept pluralism we tend to say, everything that is legal we should be non-judgemental about. Things where there is a real problem and social consensus on that, are the only things we make law about'

This is our general approach.

In England and Wales it's worked kind of forever that things are ok unless there's something to say not.

Elsewhere in some European countries it's the reverse. You shouldn't do things unless they are explicitly ok.

This is a cultural thing as much as anything.

EG walking on the grass in a maintained park.

Here you assume you can unless there's a sign saying not.

Elsewhere it's assumed you can't unless there's a sign to say it's ok.

This conversation is touching on some really interesting cultural points.