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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Unite Unions and Many Other LGBT Organisations Lobby Government to Lower the Age of Consent

93 replies

gardenbird48 · 29/03/2021 22:11

A large number of organisations led by IGLA World (International Lesbian Gay Bisexual Trans and Intersex Organisation) are promoting what they call a ‘Feminist Declaration’

According to Legal Feminist there are provisions (fairly well buried) urging governments to ‘eliminate... laws limiting legal capacity of adolescents... to provide consent to sex.’

While the Women’s Human Rights Campaign (in Australia nb this is being lobbied in the UK as well) does not want teenagers labelled sex offenders for consensual non-abusive sexual activity with their peers ... there is concern that these demands would remove the ability to protect children from exploitation by adults and older adolescents.

Stonewall and Mermaids (plus Proud Trust etc) are signatories to this. I haven’t read the whole document but I trust Legal Feminist and they are livid about this.

We need to be reinforcing safeguards not removing them - who will benefit from this? It won’t be the girls.

Did we see the recent case of the young girl abused by firefighters in France was undermined by their low (or lack of?) age of consent.

feministlegal.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Media-Release-on-CSW-and-ILGA-_28-Mar-2021-1.pdf

Unite Unions and Many Other LGBT Organisations Lobby Government to Lower the Age of Consent
Unite Unions and Many Other LGBT Organisations Lobby Government to Lower the Age of Consent
OP posts:
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CaptainCarp · 29/03/2021 23:44

@Hibari

Are you sure this isn't about ensuring the age of consent is the same age for straight and gay people?

Not sure if Australia is different but UK age of consent is 16 for hetero- & homosexual sex.

I was surprised to find this has only been the case since 2008 (for entire UK) though!

I think 16 is a reasonable age of consent with regards to knowing the consequences of sex / potentially having the means or independence to go the gp / sexual health clinic for contraception.
I'd be interested to see justification for it to be lowered.

Eliminate all laws and policies that punish or criminalize .. . HIV transmission non-disclosure and exposure

^^this is pretty horrifying. It should be punished for knowingly giving someone a life altering disease which can potentially lead to death.

Also concerned with the "laws limiting capacity of disabled people" as PP said does this include those with intellectual disabilities? How much harder would it be to prove that an individual hadn't consented if the current laws weren't in place?
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stumbledin · 29/03/2021 23:45

I would actually like to suggest this isn't highlighted by making it a thread on mumsnet (which always features highly on google search).

This is from last year and was largely ignored.

Please dont draw attention to it!

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MissBarbary · 29/03/2021 23:46

Europe and I would assume Canada, New Zealand and Australia do not have different ages of consent for heterosexual and homosexual activities. Of Latin America the only country specifically mentioned in the articles I found was Paraguay- so presumably similar.

The Vatican is the only jurisdiction in Europe not to have equal and gender-neutral age limits. In accordance with canon law all sex outside of marriage is illicit regardless of the age or willingness of those who engage in it, although the age at which a woman can marry is 14 compared to 16 for a man

Paraguay, meanwhile, has the age set at 14 for heterosexual relations, but at 16 for homosexual sexual activity, and does not have a close-in-age exemption.In Chile, where the age of consent is 18, it is possible for two individuals both aged 17 or under who willingly engage in intercourse to be prosecuted for statutory rape, although this is rare
www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.co.uk/92121/ages-of-consent-around-the-world%3famp

A comparison of the age of consent laws in all jurisdictions on the European continent revealed that, although detailed legislation varied significantly from one jurisdiction to another, a large majority of jurisdictions share one common characteristic: They have adopted agender-neutralapproach when setting the age limit for young people, without indicting the gender or sexual orientation of the sexual participants, which means that both male and female children, either in heterosexual or homosexual relations, enjoy protection to the same extent

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10610-017-9353-2

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 29/03/2021 23:50

The 'Feminist Declaration' claims that they involved feminist groups among many other groups in the production of their document.

This is feminist in the sense that vegans are carnivorous. Why even bother to use the word 'feminist'? Surely they're not taking anyone in?

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thirdfiddle · 29/03/2021 23:57

:o :o :o in plain sight.

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ChickenonaMug · 30/03/2021 00:18

The World Health Organisation actually defines adolescence as between 10 and 19 years old

www.who.int/health-topics/adolescent-health#tab=tab_1

UNICEF also agree that adolescence is between 10 and 19 years old.

www.unicef.org/media/files/SOWC_2011_Main_Report_EN_02092011.pdf

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SmokedDuck · 30/03/2021 00:24

I've heard this business about HIV status before. It seems to be based on the idea that the drugs now are good so getting it isn't a big deal, and that requiring disclosure means some people might have impinged sex lives which is horrible and impossible to live with, and they might be gay men so it's homophobic too.

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FifteenToes · 30/03/2021 00:30

Isn't there at least one European country (can't remember which) where the age of consent is quite low but it's still a crime for an adult to have sex with someone of that age? Surely something like this would be a more nuanced way to achieve what seems to be the aim here?

So: two 14-year-olds have sex with each other. No crime.

20-year-old has sex with 14-year-old. Crime.

My understanding is that that's pretty much what happens in the UK at the moment anyway, in that while the first scenario is technically a crime, police and courts tend not to prosecute it. It would just be bringing the law up to the state of practice.

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RabbitOfCaerbannog · 30/03/2021 00:33

If that's pretty much what happens in the UK anyway and we're not seeing miscarriages of justice, why change it?

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NiceGerbil · 30/03/2021 00:52

Did this originate in the UK and is it aimed at the UK?

It can't be as the things they want are not really issues?
I'm googling.

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NiceGerbil · 30/03/2021 01:01

Link

outrightinternational.org/content/womens-rights-caucus-issues-feminist-declaration-marking-25th-anniversary-beijing

From a global point of view a lot of it is good and makes sense.

And I'm sure there are rationales they could give

EG girls trafficked into prostitution being imprisoned for underage sex
In areas where HIV is very prevalent and women/girls have little power then the ability to use hiv status to coerce etc goes on I'm sure
Ditto I'm sure there are young people have all sorts happen for sex outside marriage
That sort of thing

The recommended age of consent to sex by who etc is 18 btw

However.

Baby and bathwater. Replace one set of abuses with potential for another. And I'm sure some/ many of these orgs are in good faith and have had it all 'explained'.

In the end this is a statement though I don't think it changes anything.

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RabbitOfCaerbannog · 30/03/2021 01:09

Always useful to keep an eye on any lobbying for changes in law that might benefit special interest groups, as well as observing those organisations that sign up to their cause. Why would Unite sign up?

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thirdfiddle · 30/03/2021 01:42

Those were supposed to be shocked faces in my previous post. For some reason they seem to have come out as inappropriate cheesy grins.

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highame · 30/03/2021 08:09

Ensure access to timely and quality gender affirming services and care, including all health services and ability to obtain legal gender recognition based on self-determination; and to minimise the effects of Bell

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highame · 30/03/2021 08:09

if you link this with age reduction to consent - sorry missed it

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EdgeOfACoin · 30/03/2021 08:22

It's not like two 14-year-olds get prosecuted for underage sex in the UK.

Everyone knows why we have an age of consent and the law is applied with discretion.

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ClocksChange · 30/03/2021 08:58

OP do you have a link with a list of all the organisations who actually signed this document?

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gardenbird48 · 30/03/2021 10:11

hi ClocksChange - the full list of member organisations of the ILGA are on this link - this is where the screenshot on my OP is from. UK is at the bottom and it includes quite a few of the LGBTQ groups of the Unite Unions as well as Stonewall, Mermaids, Unite the Union itself, University College London, Department for International Development, Fire Brigades Union LGBT, The Metro Centre, Pride etc.

ilga.org/civi_details?region=europe

The 'Feminist Declaration' was originally launched last year (I'm not sure why it has only just come to the attention of Legal Feminist) and it appears to be part of their ongoing work.

The ILGA are clearly a huge and influential organisation and are making progress in changing things at Government level (see below re. 'Conversion Therapy Toolkit' so I would put down the lack of public awareness of the 'Feminist Declaration' to their Dentons style 'stealth/don't worry, it's just paperwork' waving it under the radar but I suspect that they are actually very busy behind the scenes brainwashing influencing people in government.

This is the link and some paragraphs for their introduction to the 'Feminist Declaration':

ilga.org/CSW64-Womens-Rights-Caucus-feminist-declaration-Beijing25
Today, ILGA World joins more than 200 organizations in adopting the Feminist Declaration, an alternative to the political declaration that outlines the steps necessary to achieve gender equality

Read the Feminist Declaration here.
New York, March 9, 2020 —Twenty five years after the adoption of the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action, the foundational global document on gender equality, governments at an abbreviated session of the UN’s Commission on the Status of Women (CSW) have reaffirmed a commitment to gender equality but, according to leading feminist groups and activists, fell short of committing to the transformative steps necessary to achieve this vision.

To address the gaps in the political declaration adopted at the CSW by governments, the Women’s Rights Caucus—a global coalition of more than 200 feminist organizations, networks and collectives that advocates for gender equality at the United Nations—has published an alternative, feminist declaration. The Feminist Declaration outlines a bold and urgent agenda for gender equality and the human rights of all women and girls, and centers the critical role of civil society organizations advocating for accountability in policy and programs meant to promote, protect, and fulfill human rights for all.

“The stalled progress on gender equality is profoundly disappointing and threatens the lives and well-being of girls, women, and non-binary people worldwide,” said the Women’s Rights Caucus. “It is not enough for governments to simply reaffirm past commitments. To achieve gender equality, we need to commit to supporting feminist movements and to adopt a bold and forward-looking agenda that addresses the multiple and intersecting challenges faced by all women and girls. The Feminist Declaration launched today reflects the priorities of the feminist movement and provides governments and other stakeholders with a path toward true equality.”

The feminist declaration includes critical issues that governments must tackle to achieve gender equality, including: sexual and reproductive rights and bodily autonomy; women, peace, and security; the intersections between the climate crisis and gender equality; and the role of women’s human rights defenders and feminist movements, who are the key to driving long-term change.

As I was pottering around their website I came across this handy toolkit to deal with Conversion Therapy. As we are seeing currently, the UK government are considering what to do about banning conversion therapy. I can see some similarities with the description here and what the government is discussing, particularly slipping in the 'gender identities' to be included in a ban which include 'psychological' therapy:

Experimentation and abuse have long taken place under the legitimising cloak of medicine, psychology and science. As the report details, gruesome practices – including electroshock ‘therapies’, forced internments in ‘clinics’ and exorcisms – are still applied in numerous countries, pushing people of diverse sexual orientations, gender identities and expressions to living self-loathing lives, up to the extreme consequences of committing suicide.

ilga.org/Conversion-therapy-report-ILGA-World-Curbing-Deception
ilga.org/combat-conversion-therapy-ilga-world-toolbox

I think we should be very concerned about this 'Feminist Declaration' and the scale of influence over government already being demonstrated by this organisation.

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highame · 30/03/2021 10:44

They appropriate words without dissent and hope that the laziness of the political class with allow laws to pass by stealth. We are fortunate in the UK that we have a second house (of Lords) which works (often) in an unaffiliated way. Now everything is under the LGBTQIF+ , the F is my implant and I think you could have it mean feminist or any other F word Grin

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LangClegsInSpace · 30/03/2021 16:01

@SmokedDuck

I've heard this business about HIV status before. It seems to be based on the idea that the drugs now are good so getting it isn't a big deal, and that requiring disclosure means some people might have impinged sex lives which is horrible and impossible to live with, and they might be gay men so it's homophobic too.

I've just been looking at world HIV stats. The drugs are good - if you have access to them. There are very wide regional variations. Around 690 000 people died from aids related causes in 2019.

www.unaids.org/en/resources/fact-sheet
Unite Unions and Many Other LGBT Organisations Lobby Government to Lower the Age of Consent
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FifteenToes · 30/03/2021 16:35

@RabbitOfCaerbannog

If that's pretty much what happens in the UK anyway and we're not seeing miscarriages of justice, why change it?

Good point, but I tend to think laws that are clear and consistent are better, all else being equal, than laws that are unclear, inconsistent and subject to discretion. If you want everybody to obey the law, a good starting point is to be absolutely clear about what the law is. "X is breaking the law. Y is not". Rather than "X is breaking the law. Y technically is too, and you could be prosecuted for it, depending on exactly who deals with your case, exactly how old you are, what the circumstances are and what mood the media are in that day. But you probably won't, so go ahead . . . it will probably be fine . . . "

I don't know if there are no miscarriages of justice. There's no clear indication of exactly what doesn't get prosecuted, or even clear agreement of exactly what justice is. (Two 15-year olds? A 16-year old and a 15-year old? How about two 15-year olds but then one of them turns 16 and they carry on having sex the next day?)

If people genuinely are relaxed about teenagers of whatever age having sex with each other (and I'm not saying they should be, or that everyone necessarily is) then it would surely make more sense for the law to reflect that and be simple and clear. It's not like it's a hard distinction to make. If a 20-year old gets caught having sex with someone underage they're still breaking the law. It's not like they can say "sorry, I thought I was 15".
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NecessaryScene1 · 30/03/2021 16:53

New post by JL on Glinner's site:

A piece of the PIE

Was lowering the age of consent always the endgame?

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RabbitOfCaerbannog · 30/03/2021 16:58

If people genuinely are relaxed about teenagers of whatever age having sex with each other (and I'm not saying they should be, or that everyone necessarily is) then it would surely make more sense for the law to reflect that and be simple and clear.

Any law that weakens the protection for under 16s will be abused by predatory adults.

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NiceGerbil · 30/03/2021 21:49

'If people genuinely are relaxed about teenagers of whatever age having sex with each other (and I'm not saying they should be, or that everyone necessarily is) then it would surely make more sense for the law to reflect that and be simple and clear. It's not like it's a hard distinction to make. If a 20-year old gets caught having sex with someone underage they're still breaking the law. It's not like they can say "sorry, I thought I was 15".'

Don't agree at all.
In the UK there is a public interest consideration. In some cases it is not in the public interest to prosecute.

Our age of 16 is already younger than WHO etc recommend.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

The CPS has lots as well.

It is generally not considered to be in the public interest to prosecution older children who are having consensual sex.

Remove the law and it opens the door for abuse.

I'm not sure what the benefits are of either tbh.

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CuthbertDibbleandGrubb · 30/03/2021 22:00

I think if anything the age should be higher, definitely an end to 16 and 17 year olds marrying, and in my opinion the age of the other person should be a factor.

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