Sex Matters - new briefing on the Minister's Maternity Bill - why doesn't it say "women"

[MForstater]

The MOMA Bill is getting debated in the Lords on Monday.

MPs said "woman" 300 times in the debate in the commons, but it doesn't say woman once in the bill.

The explanatory notes say

"The Bill does not refer to biological sex or use gender-specific terms when referring to a Minister’s pregnancy and maternity. This reflects common practice of avoiding gender-specific terms when drafting, further to drafting guidance first introduced in 2007."

More political erasure of sex. I hope the Lords will kick up a fuss.

If you can't talk about biological sex in relation to gestating another human being inside your body for 9 months and all the gory stuff that goes with that when can you??

drive.google.com/file/d/1r6SMDWVXIMIVZGqgimLcSClDePnkURpk/view

[NecessaryScene1]

PlanDeRaccordement is extremely confused.

But this really isn't complicated.

Female and male refer to reproductive roles - the concept applies to countless animals and plants on this planet.

Women and men are female and male humans respectively.

Any human capable of conceiving and giving birth is playing the female reproductive role, and is therefore a woman, by the above definition.

And that would include any person with a DSD that you call "intersex" able to do so. If their sex was ever in any doubt, being able to give birth dispels the doubt - they are female.

If a hermaphrodite existed, capable of playing both roles, then they would be both male and female. This can happen in some creatures - simultaneously, or sequentially.

If any human could switch roles, then they would indeed switch from being a man to a woman, by the definition. If they could do both at once, they would be both a man and a woman.

"Man" and "woman" are not mutually exclusive by definition, simply by material reality. Find me someone who can both conceive and impregnate, and sure, they're both a man and a woman.

So when talking about legislation for those giving birth, then, by definition, all it applies to are women. Conceivably some could be men, if they were hermaphrodites, but they'd still be women too.

Some of this reasoning might be unfamiliar, but its entirely self-consistent with the standard definitions. It's only unfamiliar because human hermaphrodites just don't occur in real life. But this is how to handle the hypothetical in a rational way that doesn't require tearing up everything we know and all the standard definitions, or treating humans any differently from any other organism.

If there was scope for loosening the legislation language, then the "human" bit would be possible. Maybe you want to extend maternity rights to other animals, if we were to let horses into Parliament. But the "female" bit, is not in doubt.

[334bu]

So women are the people who get pregnant and a Maternity Bill only refers to adult human females aka women. Therefore like the Equality Act the Bill should use women.
It was refreshing to see so many peers from both sides of the House , who seem to have a firm grasp on science.

[Datun]

@Cailleach1

The world woman itself (in English) refers to an adult human female. In mature humans, that is the word for the sex that produces eggs.

Yes, indeed. But that appears to have escaped a certain pp.

[Cailleach1]

The world woman itself (in English) refers to an adult human female. In mature humans, that is the word for the sex that produces eggs.

[Datun]

How about a note saying:

"For the purposes of clarity, the word woman used in this bill means of or denoting the sex who bear eggs."

Would that work?

[Cailleach1]

What? Are you now telling me that those things you posted may be dodgy and should not be taken as Gospel? Or they may not be by credible, reputable and peer reviewed scientists?

You're being way too sceptical.

They state someone had a 'spontaneous pregnancy'. Assisted is different from spontaneous.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@Cailleach1
I’m a bit unsure about what exactly the scientists meant by saying “spontaneous pregnancy” and “auto-fertile”. I am not sure if they are meaning fertile without medical intervention to give the person fertility hormones or parthogenesis itself.

Although I know parthogenesis does mean immaculate conception and one study did use that term. But, I’d hesitate to say it’s proven until further studies have been done.

[persistentwoman]

Only women give birth.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@CharlieParley
Complete gonadal dysgenisis. Was a cut and paste error on my part from the webpage showing frequency of births..which I responding to a pp who said there are only a few globally (not U.K.).

I should have cut and pasted over from isna.org/faq/frequency/ the Ovotestes one in 83,000 births statistic and that would avoided the confusion I caused you. At any rate OT DSD (true hermaphroditism) does exist and extrapolating from U.K. 712,680 live births in 2019, you get 9 such people born every year in the U.K.
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/datasets/vitalstatisticspopulationandhealthreferencetables

And for just genital ambiguity, if you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. Which if you go with most conservative of 1 in 2000 births equals 357 per year in U.K. or more than one baby a day.

Both are well above your “one person every two years in the U.K.” (which I might add has no source and no explanation of where you got that number from.)

[Cailleach1]

There are cases of them even having a spontaneous pregnancy.

Wow. This sentence just jumps out. So the BVM really could have had an immaculate conception!

Also, those women and girls who are murdered or at least shunned for getting pregnant outside marriage. 'I have had a spontaneous pregnancy' could be used.

Well, I'll be.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@MoleSmokes
Your lack of knowledge on this subject, combined with scrabbling for credibility, attempts to silence others by shaming and appropriation of the struggles of people with sometimes devastating medical conditions (by no means restricted to genital appearance and reproductive capacity) is embarrassing.

I am embarrassed
Embarrassed that you really think hermaphrodites are “mythical beings” and “phsyiologically impossible” and yet are lecturing me on lack of knowledge.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Just noticed I forgot study ID# for last study
SRY-negative 46,XX testicular/ovotesticular DSD: Long-term outcomes and early blockade of gonadotropic axis
PMID: 33296530 DOI: 10.1111/cen.14389

[PlanDeRaccordement]

The phrase "true hermaphrodite" has a specific meaning. Which is an individual who has a functioning male reproductive system and a functioning female reproductive system either at the same time or in sequence (develops from a fertile male to a fertile female and vice versa). Neither type have been documented in humans,

You can see from the above studies as well as other from before 5yrs ago that this is simply not a true statement. True hermaphroditism or OT-DSD does exist in humans and many have been studied.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Note all the studies are from within the last 5 years. These are recent scientific peer reviewed published studies.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Complete gonadal dysgenisis does not mean that a baby is born with fully formed ovaries and fully formed testes. What it means is that instead of gonads (i.e. either ovaries or testes) the baby has fibrous, non-functional tissue that cannot produce the hormones that ovaries or testes produce and the child will not develop normally at puberty without receiving hormone replacement.

Not always. Ok, so I know “true hermaphroditism” is an outdated term now, but the science papers did/do still use them and when I quoted them, that’s the term they used, so I have merely repeated it so as to accurately post what I’m reading. But these intersex people can in fact have both functioning ovarian and testes tissues, which occurs in 30% of patients. They are not always infertile. See: www.lecturio.com/concepts/true-hermaphroditism/

There are cases of them even having a spontaneous pregnancy. Cases of ones with the exact same chromosomes being raised as male or female. Here are summaries and study ID to look up on pubmed:

Pregnancy in true hermaphrodites and all male offspring to date
Abstract:A true hermaphrodite with a spontaneous pregnancy prenatally known to have a remaining portion of a right ovotestis, delivered a male neonate. DOI: 10.1097/AOG.0b013e3181866456

Potential autofertility in true hermaphrodites
Abstract: ...In fact, both ovulation and spermatogenesis were detected in some cases. All of these findings show that true hermaphrodites with ovarian and testicular tissues are potentially autofertile.
DOI: 10.1080/14767058.2017.1291619

46, XX Ovotesticular disorder of sex development (true hermaphroditism) with seminoma: A case report
Abstract: Rationale: Ovotesticular disorder of sex development (DSD), previously known as true hermaphroditism, is a disorder in which individuals have both testicular and ovarian tissues. Instances of tumors arising in the gonads of individuals with 46,XX ovotesticular DSD are uncommon. Patient concerns: We report a case of a 36-year-old phenotypical male with a chief complaint of an abdominal mass for 3 months. He reported normal erections and regular menses. Computerized tomography showed a large tumor measuring 15 × 10 cm in size, a uterus, and a cystic ovary. DOI:10.1097/MD.0000000000022530

46 XX, SRY Negative Ovotesticular DSD
We report here a 20 year old phenotypically male who presented with gynaecomastia and found to have testis on right side and left inguinoscrotal swelling consisting of ovary, uterus and fallopian tubes.
PMID: 31315334

Endocrine Management of Ovotesticular DSD, an Index Case and Review of the Literature
Abstract: Here, we describe the case of 46,XX, SRY-negative baby with ambiguous genitalia and ovotestis discovered during laparoscopy. As the family decided on female gender of rearing, the testicular component of the ovotestis was removed while the ovarian component was preserved.
PMID: 31763803 DOI: 10.17458/per.vol17.2019.kmv.endocrineovotesticulardsd

Puberty in Patients with Ovotesticular DSD: Evaluation of 20 Patients and Review of the Literature
Abstract Background: Ovotesticular Difference of Sex Development (OT DSD) is a rare condition characterized by histologic demonstration of ovarian and testicular tissue in the same individual. Descriptions in literature usually do not include long term follow-up data. Results: In a retrospective study of 31 patients, findings include predominantly male gender assignment at the time of referral (54.8%) and subsequent female gender of rearing (54.8%). The most frequent karyotype was 46,XX (58.1%). Ovotestis was the most frequent gonad (48.4%) Puberty could be evaluated in 20 patients, being spontaneous in 12 of them. Four patients with partial gonadectomy in infancy were able to enter female puberty spontaneously. PMID: 32741155 DOI: 10.17458/per.vol17.2020.msc.pubertyovotesticulardsd

SRY-negative 46,XX testicular/ovotesticular DSD: Long-term outcomes and early blockade of gonadotropic axis
Abstract: Objective: SRY-negative 46,XX testicular and ovotesticular disorders/differences of sex development (T/OTDSD) represent a very rare and unique DSD condition where testicular tissue develops in the absence of a Y chromosome. To date, very few studies have described the phenotype, clinical and surgical management and long-term outcomes of these patients. Particularly, early blockade of the gonadotropic axis in patients raised in the female gender to minimize postnatal androgenization has never been reported. Results: Sixteen 46,XX SRY-negative T/OTDSD were included. Most (12/16) were diagnosed in the neonatal period. Sex of rearing was male for six patients and female for ten, while the clinical presentation varied, with an external masculinization score from 1 to 10. Five patients raised as girl were successfully treated with GnRH analog to avoid virilization during minipuberty. Ovotestes/testes were found bilaterally for 54% of the patients and unilaterally for the others (with a contralateral ovary). Gonadal surgery preserved appropriate tissue in the majority of cases. Spontaneous puberty occurred in two girls and one boy, while two boys required hormonal induction of puberty. One of the girls conceived spontaneously and had an uneventful pregnancy. DNA analyses (SNP-array, next-generation sequencing and whole-exome sequencing) were performed. A heterozygous frameshit mutation in the NR2F2 gene was identified in one patient.
Conclusions: This study presents a population of patients with 46,XX SRY-negative T/OTDSD. Early blockade of gonadotropic axis appears efficient to reduce and avoid further androgenization in patients raised as girls.

[DaisiesandButtercups]

@334bu

Thank you for clearing that up. As.this bill only affects members of the female sex , as they are the only people who can get pregnant, then, as in other laws, the word woman should be used.

This is a perfect summary.

I would also like to add my thanks to the very patient posters explaining the facts clearly and dispelling the misinformation.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

I'm only popping back in to say thanks to the three inhumanly patient posters. The clear explanation of DSDs should put paid to that particular stupidity in future. And would be really helpful for any lurkers still gathering information, learning what the hell all this is about.

Thank you for not letting such rank disinformation to stand unopposed

[334bu]

Thank you for clearing that up. As.this bill only affects members of the female sex , as they are the only people who can get pregnant, then, as in other laws, the word woman should be used.

[CharlieParley]

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@CharlieParley
There is only one sex in humans capable of creating large immobile gametes, bearing young and giving birth. That sex is female.

However, for every 2 in 1,000 births a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia such that a specialist has to assign a sex to the baby and do surgery to remove the genitalia of the sex not assigned. As this is a human decision, it cannot be 100% correct sex assignment. So there are people assigned female, that are male and people assigned male that are female. (Again not talking gender identity for posters who haven’t read the full thread. Trans have hijacked the real plight of the intersex, and that is another subject).[/quote]
This is wrong.

Yes, 2 in 1000 babies are born with ambiguous genitalia requiring specialist input to determine the sex of the baby. But in 19 out of 20 of these babies, sex can be determined as clearly male or female. Sex is not assigned to these children but determined.

In one in 20 of these children, sex cannot be conclusively determined and is therefore assigned. This is based on the results of all medical testing and will usually involve a prediction how the child will develop based on the available data.

This assignment works for 9 out of these 10 children. For 1 in 10 however, the assignment is wrong and will then be corrected in adulthood.

In actual numbers that is one person in the UK every two years.

Whether sex is determined or assigned, in most developed nations following a modern treatment pathway for these children, corrective surgery is performed at a young age only if this is medically necessary. Advocates for people with DSDs recommend leaving any medically unnecessary cosmetic surgeries until the child is old enough to consent. (Like "dsd families", a Scottish charity supporting children with DSDs and their parents. I quoted their numbers here.)

I'm not sure you really understand what these conditions entail. These children are NOT born with two sets of genitalia.

I said that “intersex is both male and female” which is correct because there are different conditions, but all are due to the person having both male and female chromosomes and/or phenotype.

No. Really, these 40 conditions do not all result in babies being born both male and female. Most of the time these babies developed along just one pathway - male or female - but their reproductive system did not form properly. They are born with a congenital malformation of either the male reproductive system or the female reproductive system. Without developing any part of the reproductive system of the other sex.

Complete gonadal dysgenesis happens at one in 150,000 births. This means mathematically that a true hermaphrodite is born every 9hrs in the world, and there are around 52,000 are currently living in the world.

The phrase "true hermaphrodite" has a specific meaning. Which is an individual who has a functioning male reproductive system and a functioning female reproductive system either at the same time or in sequence (develops from a fertile male to a fertile female and vice versa). Neither type have been documented in humans, but they do exist in other species.

Complete gonadal dysgenisis does not mean that a baby is born with fully formed ovaries and fully formed testes. What it means is that instead of gonads (i.e. either ovaries or testes) the baby has fibrous, non-functional tissue that cannot produce the hormones that ovaries or testes produce and the child will not develop normally at puberty without receiving hormone replacement.

Individuals born with complete gonadal dysgenisis are infertile, because they cannot produce sperm or ova because they don't have testes or ovaries. Instead, they have non-functional clumps of tissue commonly known as streak gonads. These frequently become cancerous and their removal is recommended as soon as possible.

HTH

[MoleSmokes]

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@MoleSmokes
there has never been a case of true human hermaphroditism recorded.

This is so false it’s laughable. There have been many recorded. Just do a search on science direct.[/quote]
Do you even understand what is meant by “hermaphroditism”?

Read those papers yourself and you will see that the term is being used incorrectly as a synonym for “intersex” or DSD ( aka “Disorders of Sexual Development” or “Disorders of Sexual Differentiation”).

Hermaphrodite

”A mythological being that is both fully female and fully male. This is physiologically impossible, and also considered a stigmatizing term.

While some intersex people have reclaimed this term, it should never be used by sex-typical people, much as derogatory racial terms can be used by members of that race, but not by members of other races.”

interconnect.support/what-is-intersex/glossary/

(InterConnect is committed to building a community for all intersex people, their families, and allies)

Your lack of knowledge on this subject, combined with scrabbling for credibility, attempts to silence others by shaming and appropriation of the struggles of people with sometimes devastating medical conditions (by no means restricted to genital appearance and reproductive capacity) is embarrassing.

[334bu]

Complete gonadal dysgenesis happens at one in 150,000 births. This means mathematically* that a true hermaphrodite is born every 9hrs in the world, and there are around 52,000 are currently living in the world

As almost none of them will be fertile why is this germane to this Bill. All the rest are either male or female Moreover, in a population of 7.8 billion these are tiny numbers.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@CharlieParley
There is only one sex in humans capable of creating large immobile gametes, bearing young and giving birth. That sex is female.

However, for every 2 in 1,000 births a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia such that a specialist has to assign a sex to the baby and do surgery to remove the genitalia of the sex not assigned. As this is a human decision, it cannot be 100% correct sex assignment. So there are people assigned female, that are male and people assigned male that are female. (Again not talking gender identity for posters who haven’t read the full thread. Trans have hijacked the real plight of the intersex, and that is another subject).

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@CharlieParley
Intersex does not denote someone who is both equally male and female.

Agree, but then I did not say the above like you see, to think I did. I said that “intersex is both male and female” which is correct because there are different conditions, but all are due to the person having both male and female chromosomes and/or phenotype.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@334bu

*I make no apology for arguing for the rights of a minority group of humans*

As this is globally a matter of a few cases over a period of years. I would think in the UK using woman in a Maternity Bill is hardly problematic. It also ties in with the use of women meaning a female adult or child.

No.

Complete gonadal dysgenesis happens at one in 150,000 births. This means mathematically* that a true hermaphrodite is born every 9hrs in the world, and there are around 52,000 are currently living in the world.

Now for all intersex, the number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female is 1 in 100 births or 78 million living today plus an additional 3,850 babies born each day.

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or 2 in 1,000 births, or 15.6 million living today plus an additional 770 babies born each day.

isna.org/faq/frequency/

*Using the world population figure of 7.8 billion and the world counts figure of 385,000 births per day in the world. www.theworldcounts.com/stories/How-Many-Babies-Are-Born-Each-Day

[CharlieParley]

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@ChazsBrilliantAttitude
One of my points is that pregnancy doesn’t affect just one sex, but two: female and intersex. Intersex are both male and female. So gender neutral makes the most sense as it is fully inclusive when writing a law regarding maternity leave in my opinion.[/quote]
This is wrong. Intersex does not denote someone who is both equally male and female. The word "intersex" refers to a group of 40 different conditions that affect the development of sex characteristics. Each condition specifically affects one sex, it's a difference in the development of the sex characteristics of either the male or female sex. The outcome may be a female-bodied person with a y-chromosome or a male-bodied person without a y-chromosome.

As sex chromosomes are the starting point of sex differentiation and not the endpoint, what is used to determine whether a person is male or female is the body they develop. That's why medicine refers to XX-males or XY-females for instance.

Just to be clear:

There is only one sex in humans capable of creating large immobile gametes, bearing young and giving birth. That sex is female.

Intersex is not a sex but a collective term for 40 different medical conditions affecting the development of sex characteristics.