Erasure of 'mother' in Breastfeeding groups

[OhHolyJesus]

It's something I've noticed since the LA Leche League did it with 'nursing parent' and since SANDS called mothers 'birthing parents' but more and more breastfeeding networks appear to be doing it.

In the comments I've noticed most women rejecting the term and maybe just 5 women saying they appreciate the 'inclusivity' as they are gender queer or fluid or whatever.

I'm not surprised as such, I mean it's a female dominated space so of course men want access and women will 'be kind' and let them in, I suppose I struggle more with the mothers who have had elective mastectomies or have breasts and can breastfeed but don't consider themselves mothers, if they need help to breastfeed why would the language around breastfeeding as a whole need to change for them, they can still get help as breastfeeding mothers.

I realise it's for the few not the many but I'm struggling to understand why those running the groups do it and kick out the women who just want to use the word mother? It's our word, others get to use their words, why can't we have mother?

[Seaglass87]

It's misogyny. Internalised, overt. It's all still misogyny.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Me too.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

I always thought that "mother" was simply a reference to a fact of life; a description. Like "thunderstorm" or "topaz" or "jellyfish".

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

When someone refers to me as mum or mother it certainly doesn’t feel neutral, and I don’t always appreciate the implications it comes with.

What is the harm that you feel is caused? I can’t see it myself but I don’t want to dismiss someone else’s experience, so I am interested to know.

Why do you have a problem with the neutral word "mother"? I can't see it myself but I don't want to dismiss your experience so am interested to know.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

merrymouse
Only women become pregnant (whether they want to or not)

and whatever they may have been identifying as (man, woman, teapot) at the time of impregnation.

[AnotherEmma]

I also object to the word "chestfeeding" although some people think this makes me a bigot.

Breast milk comes from breasts. If a trans man is using their breasts to feed their baby, it's still breastfeeding, and someone who is triggered by using the correct word for it is not at all likely to breastfeed in the first place, as surely the physical act of breastfeeding would be even more triggering than the use of the word to describe it?!

As for trans women attempting to "chestfeed" babies which is basically pretending to breastfeed, that is entirely for the adult's benefit and not the baby's benefit. Plenty of parents (mothers, fathers, women, men, trans or not) might not be able to breastfeed their babies for whatever reason, and those people just use bottles (of formula, expressed or donated milk). Of course a bottle is good enough for a woman who wanted to breastfeed and couldn't, but apparently not good enough for a trans woman who wants to pretend to breastfeed instead

I am aware that some people will find my views offensive but frankly I find it offensive that some people are trying to appropriate the very things that only biological female can do, which are also the things that make us vulnerable to discrimination, inequality and violence.

[Itsnotlikethiswithotherpeople]

I get upset about this. I would have no issue with it being a group for “breastfeeding mothers (and trans men who are feeding their babies)” but I object to the loss of the word mother as the key identifying thing and any suggestion of inclusion of men or trans women. In COVID times lots of groups I’m in people will video their latch to get help. It’s not at all fair or reasonable to expect women to put up with male born people seeing them exposed and vulnerable.

[Dowermouse]

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3725402560852079&id=136580916400946

[Dowermouse]

Doh, LLLGB, and I cross posted. I'll go back in my corner.

[Dowermouse]

LLLInternational's very recent statement on the covid vaccine has used the word Mother, not some variation on lactating-befrontbumped-human-person.

[LolaSmiles]

Notably, I've noticed that all the women I know in real life who are uncomfortable with the erasure of women have had children, which for many women like us - white, highly-educated, very middle class - was the first time we'd really recognised ourselves as experiencing overt sexism and the ways in which biological reality impacts on women; it certainly was for me
It was for me too. I'd always considered myself a feminist, and not one of those feminism means whatever you want it to be types, but I remember discussing feminism with a (older, single, childfree) family friend and finding her views a bit 'out there' and uncomfortable. Then I had DC and her views no longer seemed out there.

[merrymouse]

@Terracottasaur

Has the word ‘mother’ ever been a neutral description? I would consider it one of the most symbolically loaded terms there is. When someone refers to me as mum or mother it certainly doesn’t feel neutral, and I don’t always appreciate the implications it comes with.

What is the harm that you feel is caused? I can’t see it myself but I don’t want to dismiss someone else’s experience, so I am interested to know.

You don't have to accept any of the implications that come with being called a mum or a mother. You can reject everything that it implies - value, virtue and expectations. Some people have really awful mothers and some people never know their mothers and some mothers immediately and willingly give their children up for adoption.

Gender expectations can be cast aside - women can be doctors and lawyers, women can vote, women can drive, women don't have to love men. That is feminism.

However, you can't reject the medical consequences of having given birth and being related to another human by virtue of having given birth.

Once you have stripped everything down you inevitably reach a point where being born male or female has unavoidable consequences. Only women become pregnant (whether they want to or not). Women lactate whether they want to or not. Only women give birth. Women cannot and have not participated equally in society without specific rights and protections that take into account their physical reality.

It is possible to sympathise with gender dysphoria (as with any other kind of dysphoria) without wanting to live according to the world view of people who suffer from that dysphoria. To insist on gender and to ignore sex is to shove all women into a gender box and to remove the language they need to protect their rights.

It is wrong.

[ThePonderer]

Notably, I've noticed that all the women I know in real life who are uncomfortable with the erasure of women have had children, which for many women like us - white, highly-educated, very middle class - was the first time we'd really recognised ourselves as experiencing overt sexism and the ways in which biological reality impacts on women; it certainly was for me.

Yes.

I'm worried my daughter will continue to think I'm a terrible bigot right up until the time she has a child of her own. (And if she never does, she might never change her mind.)

[Terracottasaur]

Has the word ‘mother’ ever been a neutral description? I would consider it one of the most symbolically loaded terms there is. When someone refers to me as mum or mother it certainly doesn’t feel neutral, and I don’t always appreciate the implications it comes with.

What is the harm that you feel is caused? I can’t see it myself but I don’t want to dismiss someone else’s experience, so I am interested to know.

[merrymouse]

It's also very harmful because 'inclusive' language hides the fact that some things only happen to women, and have been and still are a cause of indirect discrimination.

The fact that women are asked to accept this because they should 'be kind' just the icing on the cake.

[merrymouse]

It doesn’t hurt me to be inclusive to them.

The problem is that it does.

I agree that I hated being referred to as 'mum' as though I didn't have a name, but I still need a word to refer to the biological reality of being a human who has given birth, that doesn't imply anything more than somebody who has just given birth.

This isn't species specific. I live rurally and you need language to explain which animals have given birth, might give birth, or are clearly about to give birth.

It's one thing to sympathise with somebody experiencing gender dysphoria. It's another to be forced to live within a restrictive world of gender stereotypes where 'mother' is a judgement of your core identity, and not a neutral description of a reproductive role.

[AnotherEmma]

I've posted about this topic several times over the last year, because I had my second baby in September and I have been following various communications about pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding, mainly on Facebook but also elsewhere.

The erasure of the words "woman" and "mother" has been very noticeable and has irked me greatly. When I have challenged it, I've come across many naive and woke replies which I can basically paraphrase as "be nice". Apparently, we "birthing people" must STFU and accept the erasure of our identity as WOMEN and MOTHERS in order to appease a tiny but vocal minority. Gets on my lactating tits.

[NeurotreeWenceslas]

Loving this!

WOMEN!

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

Because some people can't be mothers.

I doubt that any of the people who are suggesting that the word "mother" ought not to be used are female people who for some biological reason are unable to carry a child to term, though.

[Terracottasaur]

I’m new to all this I’m sorry in advance. So if breastfeeding groups is extended to people who cannot breastfeed, what do they actually do in the group? How are they included in something they cannot physically do?

It’s the other way round; there may be trans men who are breast / chest feeding and who don’t want to be referred to as mothers.

I’m currently breastfeeding and I don’t object to inclusive language. For one thing I really object to being called ‘mum’ by doctors and nurses, which has happened multiple times since my son was born. I have a name and I’m not their mother and for another, breastfeeding is hard enough without the added complication of making someone doing it feel alienated or unwelcome. It doesn’t hurt me to be inclusive to them.

[NeurotreeWenceslas]

[quote OhHolyJesus]I'm afraid the reason for this thread was down to a post using 'nursing parent' in place of mother in a US breastfeeding group, I fear the gender ideology in breastfeeding groups is strong.

www.facebook.com/194867850564727/posts/4005008772883930/?d=n[/quote]


Ah yes I saw that, didn't realise it was US. Some of the others I'm in aren't like that (yet, only a matter of time.)

Why is mother a dirty word?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I completely agree, it is. And also that it's sold to younger women and girls as "intersectional feminism". True intersectionality would recognise females as a specific group needing legal protections and appropriate policy making.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

I know, I know! It's just sad how it's been so turned round to be to our disadvantage.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I think because back then "person" would have made us equal to men, whereas now when it is used it's deliberately reducing us to our bodily functions so that men can appropriate our non bodily experiences (and sometimes mimic the physically female ones). It again makes us a passive vessel for male desires.