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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do we undo the cultural change

75 replies

notassigned · 13/12/2020 07:25

It is just 3 years since groups started springing up in the UK to counter transgender ideology and I see that the same is happening now in Canada, Ireland and elsewhere. But the pernicious effect of parts of the internet and of the ideology that has been embedded into schools mean that we have a generation of people up to at least age 25 who unquestioningly buy into it all. Optimistic as I am with results such as Keira's, I struggle to see how we essentially de-brainwash an entire generation.

OP posts:
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Thingybob · 13/12/2020 12:14

@donquixotedelamancha

I struggle to see how we essentially de-brainwash an entire generation.

I teach 11-18s. We've had a big cluster of ROGD but even at it's height I don't think the vast majority of kids bought it. It's about stopping the rot- reality will undo the nonsense once the input is removed.

I think a key target is to generate the same challenge to social transition that the Bell Judgement is going to cause to PBs. Telling a 12YO girl they are a boy (as in my class) is not healthy. If that child genuinely does have GD then psychological treatment should be by qualified specialists- not the local CAHMS.

I think we all need to challenge the lie of social transition whenever we see it. GIDS have never recommended social transition. Even WPATH are on the fence about it and acknowledge that it could do serious harm. Why are schools and other organisations following the advice of lobby groups rather than the advice of experts?
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allmywhat · 13/12/2020 12:29

Where & what can I read? What shall I search apart from embodiment?
Is this coming out of disability studies/activism, or feminism, or both?


I wish I could tell you more! I don't know of anything in the humanities related to embodiment, but then I don't really know much about the humanities! I think it's a very important area for feminism and the basic intuitions of it I see touched on here and in other real (not liberal feminist) spaces online but again I don't know of academic feminist work. I feel like I'd love to get a handle on embodiment on an intellectual level. I get the impression no one has pulled all the strands of it together yet in a way that could get intellectual momentum, and all the research is piecemeal and scattered.

For embodiment as a respectable academic concept, there are some people doing work in psychology and neuroscience, especially around trauma. I've read some papers but not anything that struck me as seminal so I don't think any links I could give you would be better than what you'll find yourself. For embodiment as practice, there are a lot of yoga types and psychedelic enthusiasts and acting teachers etc. Honestly, I'm coming from the psychedelic-enthusiast end of things so that's why I'm not much use with academic references.

There is psychotherapy though - "somatic experiencing" and EMDR and other embodied modalities of therapy bridge the gap between academia and practicality.

This massive online conference brought together people from academic and practical sides of "embodiment." theembodimentconference.org/home

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MichelleofzeResistance · 13/12/2020 12:34

I’m currently listening to an audiobook from C.J Sansom’s Shardlake series set during the reign of Henry VIII. It goes to great lengths to get across the feelings of fear and paranoia brought about by a febrile atmosphere of religious intolerance, where an accusation of heresy, of having certain beliefs, or the possession of certain books, can be potentially ruinous or even deadly. The parallels to today are striking.

Very much this.

Equally, read Phillipa Gregory's Tudor books. The themes are familiar ones, this country has done this before. And it's always passed relatively quickly and things returned to balanced tolerance, because this kind of religious intolerance is not positive or acceptable. It causes a rise up in anger and resistance in the massive majority population who won't accept this kind of treatment, and it's remembered afterwards, for centuries, for the harm, the distress, the fear and intolerance it engendered.

Nothing can be undone, and it shouldn't be undone: for the same reason no platforming shouldn't happen. The worse something is, the more it should be talked about, unpacked, understood, faced upto, otherwise the mistake's just been buried for another generation to stumble over, because of cowardice over the discomfort in our generation.

What needs to happen is that cultural change keeps changing, and changes to realise that the baby and the bathwater are two separate things, and that ditching women's rights and safeguarding are not an acceptable solution to meeting the needs being raised. We're already seeing this shift in culture, it's here. Keira's case, the articles in the papers, things being said that couldn't be said a few years ago, it has moved on.

What we do is keep talking. Keep unpacking. Keep raising consciousness and awareness and making people actually apply critical thought, which is all GC women have ever sought to do.

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SorryPleaseTryAgain · 13/12/2020 12:46

I haven't read all the comments, but thought this podcast was quite interesting:

www.philosophy247.org/podcasts/political-disagreement/

He talks about the polarised modern political climate and the denial of actual, proven facts. The positive thing is that he says that studies show that people who deny facts generally don't actually believe it themselves, but rather are signalling allegiance with their chosen ideology. People in the studies would show that they did know the truth, if given a financial incentive.
That is positive because it means that people know and understand facts deep down and will be able to "change their minds" once incentivised to do so (perhaps by popular opinion shifting). It explains why otherwise completely sane people will vehemently deny the existence of biological sex.

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persistentwoman · 13/12/2020 12:56

user131426479642
Thank you for your powerful and personal posts. So many women's lived experiences being ignored by those who I agree, just don't care and were often complicit in treating those women appallingly . The ongoing scandals of the organised abuse of girls is a classic example.

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2Rebecca · 13/12/2020 13:28

I think we are starting to undo it. Before many things snuck in under the radar and the climate of fear and no debate meant no one said anything. Women (and some men) now have their eyes open and are more confident about speaking up.

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StillAHarpie · 13/12/2020 13:46

We keep talking and keep funding the legal challenges.

And whilst I don’t think the companies are taking any notice yet, whenever we can we need to continue to not use large companies who don’t provide single sex provision where requested and switch that business to small, ideally female owned businesses and encourage others to do the same.

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persistentwoman · 13/12/2020 14:03

@StillAHarpie

We keep talking and keep funding the legal challenges.

And whilst I don’t think the companies are taking any notice yet, whenever we can we need to continue to not use large companies who don’t provide single sex provision where requested and switch that business to small, ideally female owned businesses and encourage others to do the same.

Quite right. I nearly went to M & S this week after the Baroness's tweets about single sex changing rooms again - but wiser heads said "wait and check" and predictably M & S came out with their usual dismissal of the safety and welfare of women customers. So for the second Christmas running, everything has been bought elsewhere including lots of small women run businesses online.
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Eowynthewarrior · 13/12/2020 15:00

I don’t think the vast majority of the general public understand that 1. Trans does not mean intersex ( or disorders of sexual development to use the appropriate term) 2. The vast majority of male transsexual idenitufying as female retain intact male genitalia 3 confuse what trans man and trans woman mean . So on hearing the phrase trans women are women think we are talking about trans men

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Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 15:07

The transgenderism issue will disappear as most people of all generations never believed in it in the first place (I am not referring to dysphoria about the body which clearly is real).

The problem is that while this ideology has taken hold we have lost all the progress that was made in maternity care, sexuality, divorce, single mothers, poverty, international links, trafficking, slavery and many other issues.

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/12/2020 16:36

People are understanding more and more that we are our bodies, and the "embodiment" movement is starting to build up steam.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of this so I'll look it up.

C.J Sansom’s Shardlake series set during the reign of Henry VIII ... goes to great lengths to get across the feelings of fear and paranoia brought about by a febrile atmosphere of religious intolerance, where an accusation of heresy, of having certain beliefs, or the possession of certain books, can be potentially ruinous or even deadly. The parallels to today are striking.

Yes, I've often thought this. For many centuries practically everyone had been Catholic. Then suddenly Catholicism is the work of the devil, and if you continue in the beliefs you and everyone around you had been brought up in, you're a heretic and a traitor.

True, we no longer burn heretics at the stake. But the ferocity of attacks on women who won't pay lip service to the new dogma is about as vicious as our society allows. Certainly I've never seen similar treatment of any other political dissidents in this country.

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MammothMashup · 13/12/2020 16:44

Targeting children although 'successful' in terms of gaslighting a generation has of course ended up in the courts with a damming verdict.

On another thread a poster has said that that case is just the start. A number of detransitioned yp may be bringing cases against GIDs. The tide will begin to turn. It'll just take some time - and sadly a lot it collateral damage.

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MichelleofzeResistance · 13/12/2020 17:06

Thing is too that safeguarding is based on the mistakes that led to loopholes being exposed. The DfE have already begun to work on closing them. It will eventually be investigated how policy that should have stopped political activists teaching children dogma as fact, and adults in all sorts of organisations, government included, who should have been following policy on impartiality and safeguarding, failed. And from that, a process will be set up that prevents it being able to happen again.

It's the whole cultural change thing - you may be able, with enough money and strategy and regulatory capture, to change a culture to what you want it to be. What you can't do is prevent it evolving on from that point based on ongoing information and insights, and continuing to change. It won't stay frozen at the target point.

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MammothMashup · 13/12/2020 17:12

They are but imo they're not being at all explicit enough.

Keira and Mrs A's case need to trickle into school safeguarding case studies, explicit explanations of how young people mustn't be completely fully affirmed and the pom poms waved and that parents can feel there are choices and opportunities to wait and be supported in that way.

Unfortunately the online culture needs to back that up too, so that adults aren't painted as the devil for wanting to robustly challenge identity stuff, to help young people not rush decisions but also identify and receive the correct support for their issues.

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Maisy37 · 13/12/2020 18:22

Thanks for this thread and all the comments . I’ve only really just rejoined mumsnet ( was on here lots 12 years ago after kids ! ) I’ve gone from feeling pretty hopeless about this situation for a long time not to me too quite lonely .. so it’s so warming to be amongst feminists again ! My daughter has started high school and has been talking about this more and more “ mum you have to use correct pronouns “ resulted in a 45 minute debate about my concerns about where this leads ... I work with kids and teens and I have such concerns about vulnerable girls , those who are vulnerable and isolated feeling that transition is the answer to their unhappiness... i have been trying to explain to my daughter what my thoughts / concerns are but it is not easy with a teenager who thinks I’m super cringe when I talk about anything anyway ! I’m taking the opportunity to comment in a ‘ oh that’s interesting what do you think about that ?’ approach.... I do feel it’s one sided in the media at the moment but that the tide is turning slowly . Keira Bell , JK, Johann Lamont and Tulsi Gabbard are just brilliant opportunities to start these conversations with young people ... thank goodness for these women ( and so many others of course )

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stumbledin · 13/12/2020 19:46

I think this is far deeper and entrenched than many realised.

It started as part of the backlash against Women's Liberation ie early 80s when women's studies became gender studies.

You have at least 2 generations of students now in positions of influence, whether media, politics, education who are a product of that education.

It was amazingly quick how much of what Women's Liberation created, not just Women's Aid, Rape Crisis, but challenge to gender stereotypes etc., where just quickly erased. This was partly done by encourage young women of the time to despise "older feminists" for being out of date, and hard line.

The GRA came in over 16 years ago, and this was possible because whilst feminism fractured, the networking and influencing of queer politics of which transgenderism is part, entrenched itself through networks of (primarily men) in positions of power.

The be kind aspect is just recent, and builds on the notion of Women's Liberation being hard nosed harridens.

Without the brain washing of for instance the word sex being supplanted by the word gender, (and prostitution becoming sex work), the notions of "identity" wouldn't have had traction.

And behind that is the aim of erasing sex not just as a concept but as a lived reality, because without sex being recognised as a class, then you dont have the basic Women's Liberationist / Radical Feminist analysis that men as a sex class oppress women as a sex class.

So its not just the current group of young people, it is their parents who were influenced by this, added to which is the affirmative parenting practice, which has allowed young people to think that because they believe something it must be true, and to question their believe is cruel (or you are just a reactionary oldie). But it you say to a young person would you run your life based on the ideas and wants of toddlers you would say no way, they dont know what they are talking about. But somehow older people or adults, particularly is they are women and just blanked out.

Until women somehow regain respect for their experience and ideas, and aren't just allowed to be followers of male expectations, nothing is going to change.

Just take the example of the BBC and the Guardian. Supposedly filled with educated people, interested in new ideas and having the room to express them. But what do they both have?

The utter conviction that what women say or do is not of much importance.

Short of the Queen coming out as gender critical and think undoing the anti woman sentiment of the past 40 years is going to be very difficult.

Would be interested to know from those with young children and young teens, assuming you are a positive female role model, how is it that so many young people totally disrespect women's autonomous ideas.

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ValancyRedfern · 13/12/2020 20:01

I think it will be a long time before the learning from the Keira Bell case trickles down into schools. Schools are still very much recommending Mermaids, Stonewall, Proud Trust etc. Nothing has changed at the chalk face yet. Most Pshe lead teachers are very 'woke' ime. I think there's a lot more work to be done.

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MammothMashup · 13/12/2020 20:52

Welcome back to the vipers nest @Maisy37!

Thank goodness for you too, who gets it and works with vulnerable young people Smile

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Maudythebudgie · 13/12/2020 20:53

@allmywhat

Embodiment.

People are understanding more and more that we are our bodies, and the "embodiment" movement is starting to build up steam. It's a very pronouny culture from what I've seen, at least where people are doing stuff online . But I think eventually as the concepts and practices of embodiment become more and more mainstream, the self-evident logical contradiction, and the actual impact of people becoming more and more attuned to and identified with their bodies, will sweep away genderist bullshit.

I think we can't think about this from a "reversing the cultural changes" perspective. It will be something new coming in. There is a positive momentum towards embodiment in the wider culture, and it's a natural next step for "wellness" movements. There are enough practical benefits to embodiment that it can appeal to individualistic, selfish, virtue-signalling types who are drawn to the trans movement.

So anyway that's my bet for the new trend that will wash all this bullshit away.

I think you are totally right here...
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MammothMashup · 13/12/2020 21:27

Is this embodiment?

If so it makes sense and I can see it comes from the whole mindfulness / acceptance of self movement?



I like the way personality is described rather than identity, small semantics but important distinctions

Moves away from the whole pigeonhole put a label and a pronoun on yourself thing.

(Kind of obvious tbh but youth of today would need it spelt out!)
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MammothMashup · 13/12/2020 21:29

The thing is the trans trend is all about accept the true me+my meds and surgeries that make me me. So I think they'd work that in somehow?!

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MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 13/12/2020 22:33

@stumbledin

I think this is far deeper and entrenched than many realised.

It started as part of the backlash against Women's Liberation ie early 80s when women's studies became gender studies.

You have at least 2 generations of students now in positions of influence, whether media, politics, education who are a product of that education.

It was amazingly quick how much of what Women's Liberation created, not just Women's Aid, Rape Crisis, but challenge to gender stereotypes etc., where just quickly erased. This was partly done by encourage young women of the time to despise "older feminists" for being out of date, and hard line.

The GRA came in over 16 years ago, and this was possible because whilst feminism fractured, the networking and influencing of queer politics of which transgenderism is part, entrenched itself through networks of (primarily men) in positions of power.

The be kind aspect is just recent, and builds on the notion of Women's Liberation being hard nosed harridens.

Without the brain washing of for instance the word sex being supplanted by the word gender, (and prostitution becoming sex work), the notions of "identity" wouldn't have had traction.

And behind that is the aim of erasing sex not just as a concept but as a lived reality, because without sex being recognised as a class, then you dont have the basic Women's Liberationist / Radical Feminist analysis that men as a sex class oppress women as a sex class.

So its not just the current group of young people, it is their parents who were influenced by this, added to which is the affirmative parenting practice, which has allowed young people to think that because they believe something it must be true, and to question their believe is cruel (or you are just a reactionary oldie). But it you say to a young person would you run your life based on the ideas and wants of toddlers you would say no way, they dont know what they are talking about. But somehow older people or adults, particularly is they are women and just blanked out.

Until women somehow regain respect for their experience and ideas, and aren't just allowed to be followers of male expectations, nothing is going to change.

Just take the example of the BBC and the Guardian. Supposedly filled with educated people, interested in new ideas and having the room to express them. But what do they both have?

The utter conviction that what women say or do is not of much importance.

Short of the Queen coming out as gender critical and think undoing the anti woman sentiment of the past 40 years is going to be very difficult.

Would be interested to know from those with young children and young teens, assuming you are a positive female role model, how is it that so many young people totally disrespect women's autonomous ideas.

Agree with that. And most of us didn't see the threat coming, because it came from the LGB community, whom feminists tended to see as allies. But we hadn't reckoned on its capture by the TRA lobby, or on how powerful the misogyny of gay men would be, once they were no longer stigmatised for their sexuality (obviously I am pleased they are no longer stigmatised, I'm just saddened that they are using their new-found influence to punch down).

I have always been optimistic that the Queer/NB trend will die out within a generation in schools, because there is nothing so uncool as the last generation's fashions. Non-conforming kids will find another outlet to express their specialness. But it will take decades to unpick the TRA institutional capture, not to mention all the POMO bollocks.
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EmbarrassingAdmissions · 13/12/2020 22:49

Until women somehow regain respect for their experience and ideas, and aren't just allowed to be followers of male expectations, nothing is going to change.

Just take the example of the BBC and the Guardian. Supposedly filled with educated people, interested in new ideas and having the room to express them. But what do they both have?

The utter conviction that what women say or do is not of much importance.

Both this and its corollary.

[Owen Jones writes:] Men are so accustomed to various privileges – such as automatically being taken more seriously – that they are not even aware they exist. That’s why it is so crucial that men listen to women and their experiences, and learn."
[Julie Bindel writes;} Thank you Owen Jones, for being a true feminist ally.

How do we undo the cultural change
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persistentwoman · 13/12/2020 22:58

Wise words Stumbled and Lucy

In relation to the JR, Transgender Trend have issued a demand that:

In light of this judgment all guidance that promotes the use of blockers and hormones must be withdrawn from schools. Transgender and ‘LGBT’ organisations should never have been given the authority to issue guidance for schools which normalises the idea of medical intervention as akin to changing clothes and pronouns. These groups are not clinical or medical professionals and a court has now ruled that the treatment they promote is unevidenced, with known harms and as yet unknown long-term risks

www.transgendertrend.com/keira-bell-court-judgment-schools/

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ChestnutStuffing · 13/12/2020 23:40

[quote Student133]@highame though I hope you're true about your first point,from what I've seen that no longer exists in universities or the public sphere. Though you can talk about whatever you like in private, discussion of anything like this publicly is quite frankly dangerous unless you are in an incredibly comfortable position, as the odds of you losing your job are quite possible. I would not be posting this under my real name, as there is a good chance I'd get reprimanded by my university. Unfortunately my study of history though my course has shown me that the default position of humanity is tribal and cultish in nature, so the recent drive in intersectionality and identity politics across the west is so damaging. Though I hope we return to a culture of individuality, I fear this may not happen, as the root is so far in to our institutions I dont know if it is possible to remove.[/quote]
I tend to agree. I am not in the UK, things are much worse in my country, and while I fervently hope they change I think it could be a close thing. There is legislation now that compels speech, the government is taking this moment to pass a bill around conversion therapy which includes gender identity, and the center-left media is completely silent about it.

It's not even clear you can speak publicly, a friend of mine employed at the university was overheard a few years ago talking to a friend at dinner about this issue, and was asked not to return as a result.

I tend to agree with your earlier point that the way students have been educated throughout their entire school experience has left them unable to think critically or skeptically around anything presented as a rights issue, or progressive, or anything that relates to "diversity". To a large degree they seem unable to really formulate doubts or think analytically about those kinds of issues at all.

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