I miss the Eighties

[BewaretheIckabog]

Joking apart, I just don’t understand how far we have regressed in gender / sexual stereotypes.

The fabulous Annie Lennox has short hair and wore masculine suits, no one ever questioned her womanhood. Apart from the odd myopic, elderly relative no one doubted whether Boy George or Marilyn were men.

The sex symbols in rock had long hair, flowing and / or lacy clothes and wore make up. The cool girls had short hair cuts and bovver boots.

Men had perms and highlights, women wore donkey jackets. Eyeliner and heels were for all.

Why so backwards now? I used to think gender identity was fine and everyone should express what they want. Suddenly I’m like WTF is gender identity.

Why have we moved backwards?

[merrymouse]

Especially me after a friend in her late 20s told me I didn't understand anything about the whole debate because I am old. Yeah, still smarting from that......

Sometimes it takes a while to discover that there is a direct link between having periods, taking time off work to have a baby and receiving a lower pension.

[merrymouse]

I've said it before but this idea on FWR that all female musicians now have to be sexualised is deeply insulting to the vast majority of contemporary female musicians who do nothing of the sort.

I think the big difference is that in the 70s and 80s most people watched TOTP every week, just because it was on, so everyone saw whoever was in the top ten, whether that was the the Sex Pistols or Terry Wogan doing the floral dance.

Now, if you don't follow the right social media channels, its impossible to say who the equivalent of Annie Lennox would be.

However, I think it is true that today's equivalent of Annie Lennox, if she exists, is not influencing main stream culture in the same way that Annie Lennox et al did when they appeared on TOTP.

[OldQueen1969]

I quite liked the BBC4 series that does a programme around each year in the 80s through the lens of TOTP because it did include a fair bit of political and general commentary about what was going on at the time outside the music scene.

I was 11 in 1980 and ended the decade at drama college (backstage course). I agree it wasn't all roses and kittens, but it does seem youth culture has become a much more aggressively marketed focus - in the 80s it did have a much more organic youth led feel - as a "techie" and in an industry dominated by both "manly men" and many from the LGBT community I did have to fight to be listened to as a "woman", and to be valued for my skills rather than being treated as a "maid" / tea girl.

Many of my friends in my age bracket who are still diverse and somewhat "out there" are disturbed by the way things are going right now, and we have those discussions in person in select locations and are all very quiet on SM. Especially me after a friend in her late 20s told me I didn't understand anything about the whole debate because I am old. Yeah, still smarting from that......

[DidoLamenting]

@Al1Langdownthecleghole

Even my dcs - forced to watch old TOTPs - observe that women were able to be people and not have to prance around in next to nothing dancing sexually whilst men wear a big jacket and boots.

Er Pans People?

Er, Transvision Vamp?

I've said it before but this idea on FWR that all female musicians now have to be sexualised is deeply insulting to the vast majority of contemporary female musicians who do nothing of the sort.

[DidoLamenting]

@IrmaFayLear

I’m not maintaining that Pans People/Legs&Co were anything other than a decorative dancing troupe. The women performing songs, however, did not by and very large have to be unclothed or writhe.

Neither do the vast majority of female musicians today.

The FWR rose tinted spectacles are firmly in place on this thread.

[merrymouse]

It's almost as though the freedom granted by Equal Marriage and the end of Section 28 have to be countered with regressive gender stereotypes.

Perhaps in the 80's Nick Rhodes was less threatening, because so many people genuinely believed that Russell Harty just hadn't found the right woman?

[IrmaFayLear]

I’m not maintaining that Pans People/Legs&Co were anything other than a decorative dancing troupe. The women performing songs, however, did not by and very large have to be unclothed or writhe.

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

So they were there for their intellect?

[IrmaFayLear]

Pans people were a) rather tame and b) not the performers

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

Even my dcs - forced to watch old TOTPs - observe that women were able to be people and not have to prance around in next to nothing dancing sexually whilst men wear a big jacket and boots.

Er Pans People?

[Delphinium20]

Pretty in Pink - Molly Ringwold had a sidekick male friend who had a rockabilly/goth look and I loved how cool that seemed...I felt the 1980s (I was a teenager then) allowed for such an artistic expression in personal style. The hipster look of millennials seemed so much tamer and muted, IMHO, which might then have led to Gen Z thinking they needed to break sex stereotypes. Culture is interesting...but, like every generation, the young think they invented it and they will likely think their version is the best.

[IrmaFayLear]

2020 or 1980? Let me in that time machine!!!!

Even my dcs - forced to watch old TOTPs - observe that women were able to be people and not have to prance around in next to nothing dancing sexually whilst men wear a big jacket and boots. As shown upthread, a female singer wearing trousers/big blouse/jacket was normal . Now every woman - presenter/artist etc - has to be “attractive” , nay, sexy . The only exceptions are those deemed “diverse”. But heterosexual young women have to sign up to the 10 hours in the gym/surgical enhancements/minimal clothing look. I find that confusing in the midst of so much anger about other injustices.

[XDownwiththissortofthingX]

The eighties wasn't a good time in general to be gay

To put it mildly.

I found the subcultures that I circulated in were generally quite tolerant and non-judgemental, but even within those it was commonplace to find individuals who were openly, virulently homophobic. In wider society it was absolutely the norm that homosexuality was viewed as deviant, corrupting, and something that society had to work to stamp out whenever and wherever the sickness showed itself.

Then there was the constant and very visible presence of the racist fringe groups. I recall National Front members handing out literature at school gates completely unchallenged, gangs of school children mobbing, chanting racist songs, and assaulting BAME kids, older, not elderly, just older relatives constantly referring to coons, wogs, pakis, spics, micks, dagos etc, without the slightest inkling that they were in any way being offensive.

I get some of the nostalgia for the 80's, but in terms of tolerance and understanding, you can't pretend that it was in any way superior to 2020. Even into the late 90's it was commonplace for people in the gay community to be followed down the road and abused or beaten by strangers because of their sexuality, or for randoms to burst into gay friendly pubs, shout and scream abuse, upturn furniture and threaten the patrons, with the police shrugging it off as 'one of those things'. The general shift in attitudes is a very, very recent thing.

If it's a choice of 2020 or 1980, I'm staying very firmly in 2020 thanks.

[gardenbird48]

Obviously Schofield has only come 'out' recently but back then everybody knew anyway.

I remember being surprised to find out that Philip was married to a lady. I guess he had a vibe :-))

[DaisiesandButtercups]

@Antibles

Why have we moved backwards?

Progress in women's legal rights means there very little a man stands lose by identifying as a woman.

This has created opportunities for some men to get things they want at very little cost to themselves.

I am really, really afraid now that we are headed somewhere worse than it has been for British women in living memory. The 80’s were great for being GNC and self expression but not great as regards sexism and homophobia. Things got better in the 90’s and early 00’s.

Now I fear a future where all that we as women have gained is taken from us and moving forward we will be more marginalised, we won’t even be able refer to “women’s problems” as we could before we discuss those things openly. We won’t even have the WI and GirlGuiding, we won’t have the various mothers groups. We won’t be allowed anything with the words woman or girl in the title. We will be separated from each other, unable to support one another in our various life stages. Our physical and mental health will suffer and data will not be available and we won’t be able to organise to improve access and services, many won’t even know that other women or girls share similar experiences. Eventually we will have no words to describe ourselves at all! We’ll be pushed out of the workplace, the leisure centres and sports clubs, even shopping centres as there will be no single sex facilities for us. Employers will surely prefer the kind of men and women who can’t get pregnant and we have already seen how we have lost out in awards and political positions intended for women. Any woman who tries to talk about such things will be effectively silenced. We already see the consequences for women who speak out publicly. We are already learning to close our mouths and lower our eyes. Just be quiet, just keep your head down, hope they leave you alone. Don’t say anything. Be kind. But it is still worse yet, silence is not enough. We must repeat the mantras, use the new words and ways of speaking. We are required to actively participate.

Yes I miss the 80’s!

[CaraDuneRedux]

@TeiTetua

In the 1980s, Jimmy Savile was in his prime.

I made a similar point upthread, Tei.

I think there's a certain amount of rose-tinted spectacles going on. Yes, in some respects things have gone backwards, in that sexism was so overt in the 80s at least you knew what you were fighting against. Whereas now it's dressed up as progressive and woke, and a lot of young women are being conned.

Yes, there was gender-bending in the pop scene.

But meanwhile in the real world, I still had to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously in STEM subjects (there was an admissions tutor in my university who used to boast that he'd take one woman every 3 years to "keep the equal ops people quiet"). There was still an expectation that girls would go into secretarial jobs. Rape within marriage was still legal.

[OhHolyJesus]

Not that I disagree but both Philip Schofield and Andi Peters we're children TV presenters, Kenny Everett went before them but to be kids presenters I think was significant.

(Obviously Schofield has only come 'out' recently but back then everybody knew anyway.)

I forget when Sam Fox came out, that must have been later...

[TeiTetua]

In the 1980s, Jimmy Savile was in his prime.

[Auridon]

I'm so glad I'm not the only woman who occasionally thinks about this! I completely agree with you.

I was in a punk rock band, living behind the iron curtain in the late 1980s. I had lots of friends of both sexes and never ever felt like I was being treated differently from the boys, told to dress properly or do typical girly stuff. I was just me.

I've been living in the US for a few decades now and I can honestly say that, in some ways, on this particular issue, this culture seems to be regressing. Girls are mirroring what they see on social media to the point of absurdity and what ends up escaping them is that individuality and coolness are actually very desirable characteristics that a lot of men appreciate. It's a bit sad, really.

I'm not sure what to attribute these changes to, so I'll blame the usual suspects - religion and porn. :)

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

I completely accept your point about the artists you mentioned, they were all people whose style I loved.

But. The eighties wasn't a good time in general to be gay. Outside of teen culture, boy George was regularly referred to as a poof. Comedians routinely referred to gay people as Nancy boys and most gay people in professional occupations hid their sexuality. Not to mention clause 28.

So yes, the gender non-conformity was great and I agree that in that regard we have gone backwards. But let's not pretend it was a great time to be gay.

[BewaretheIckabog]

But the wonderful idea you could present in anyway you chose - sleep with whoever you want. Be proud of what you are and not have to pretend you are something you aren’t.

[youkiddingme]

It saddens me no end when I hear most of a generation talking as though sex stereotypes are set in stone. Younger people in my own family don't really believe me when I tell them about the seventies and eighties.

[BewaretheIckabog]

Yes, imagine being pigeonholed for how you dress? Seems a bit regressive.

[Antibles]

Why have we moved backwards?

Progress in women's legal rights means there very little a man stands lose by identifying as a woman.

This has created opportunities for some men to get things they want at very little cost to themselves.