Mothers alcohol use shown on medical records

[RegularHumanBartender]

I have just stumbled across this on the Sky news homepage and I am horrified. I have no words! Apologies if there is already a thread, I did scan the first page but I couldn't see one.

Talk about reducing women to sacred incubators! I am struggling to form sentences I am so incensed by this. Not sure if this is even the right place to post.

news.sky.com/story/mothers-alcohol-use-could-soon-be-shown-on-childs-medical-record-prompting-privacy-fears-12073153

[Gronky]

@CharlieParley

Correction to the third paragraph from the bottom from my previous comment (Sorry for the muddle)

So, recording a disease that develops because of the mother that is not caused by the mother's behaviour, but instead by inherited genes and an antibody reaction she has no control over, is not an ethical issue at all.

Thank you for your reply. Given that we can now screen for risk, isn't that a form of preconception behaviour (a mother not choosing to conceive with a Rh(d) partner)? I don't believe at all that this should play a role in choosing a partner but I wonder if the issue is less general behaviour and more negative perceptions in society of specific behaviours?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

One enduring memory of my second child's birth is the midwife telling me that if she couldn't get a clear trace while I was on the ball, she'd force me to lie on the bed (she used the word 'force'). Despite the pain, and having only had short naps for the best part of a week because of contractions, I gave a mini-speech on body autonomy

Good for you. I've supported a few vulnerable young women in pregnancy and am always shocked at the things that are assumed to be given. I've heard young women tell me what they 'have' to do or 'cant' do. Most of which is untrue.

It's bad enough when you're a middle class, older wire woman. But a teenaged young woman of colour? It's dreadful.

[Livpool]

A hard no from me - this is scary and appalling in equal measure.

Women have autonomy over their own body - pregnant or not. The alternative is positively dystopian

[anon444877]

It seems like yet more cheap talk, another box to tick on a form most people will lie about. The more uncomfortable questions you ask in one session from a healthcare provider you have no relationship with, the less good the data will be.

I wonder why we capture all this data and don’t put the emphasis on quality healthcare relationships which might lead to better outcomes.

[HarryLimeFoxtrot]

Where do you draw the line? A female child is born with her entire lifetime supply of gametes. And IIRC epigenetic studies in mice found that FAS markers were present in both the child and the grandchild. So any baby girl should have the information about her grandmother’s drinking habits - not just her mother’s - included in her medical records.

[Clymene]

Babies whose fathers drank in the 3 months before they were conceived are more likely to have congenital heart defects.

Are we monitoring men's alcohol use? If not, why not?

[NiceGerbil]

'So in theory an adult who believed themselves to be an only or eldest child child could access their medical records and discover their mother had carried a pregnancy to term prior to their birth?'.

Another poster said yes, if they were born after 2000.

WHAT THE FUCK???? Seriously???

I had no idea. That's appalling. What possible reason is there for a child to know how many abortions she had or if she had had a baby adopted? If she was pregnant at 16 or 50?

I don't understand. Has anyone got any links?

Now we are saying her drinking and drug habits and potentially mental health status and issues should be on the child's record as well.

I'm genuinely taken aback.

[NiceGerbil]

I feel like I must have misunderstood something here.

Google is not helping.

Is it the case that for babies born after 2000 the start of their health records includes personal details about the mother already. EG previous pregnancies with years and outcomes.

That can't be right surely.

[NiceGerbil]

So they can go to gp at 18 and find all this stuff out.

Soon to possibly include alcohol and drug consumption.

Details about any DV? that's something they always ask when you're pregnant IME after sending the man out of he's there, to get a cuppa.

Another poster has mentioned mental health issues.

So what is currently on this thing, when can the child read it, what is the risk/ benefit around it being available to them in terms of relationships etc, what about the privacy and confidentiality of the mother.

If the child and the mum didn't get on they could hold this info over them potentially. Especially if it seemed there was eg a pregnancy when she was young before her current long term partner or something.

What about sensitivities with different groups? What if a boy from a very patriarchal family finds out his mum terminated a pregnancy before she was married?

I mean come on let's have some more info here.

[NiceGerbil]

Hopefulhalf

You seem to have the info around this ^

Can you give some more info please? Especially around what consideration went into risk to family relationships and potentially women's safety, on allowing children this info when they turn 18.

[FlorenceNightshade]

Any adult can make a request to their trust to see their medical records. There is no context provided just the black and white pages.

That’s why as HCPs there is a responsibility to make sure records are accurate and fact based not opinion based. If a family makes a complaint for example it can be made worse if the records aren’t completed as they should be.

And as far as I’m aware there is no aftercare if a patient reads something upsetting in their notes.

[NiceGerbil]

Yes I've seen my medical notes.

The point is, is it true that from 2000 children's notes contain details of their mothers previous pregnancies?

And it's more than 'upsetting' this is just about the most personal information about a woman you can have, and it's available to her children?

Is that correct.

And please if you know where the consultations or guidelines or anything about this lives please can you point me in the right direction?

I genuinely can't believe this.

[hopefulhalf]

The system is called Euroking although that only dates back to 2006/7 but something very similar was in place before.

[FlorenceNightshade]

I can only speak for my area but yes if there were concerns or interventions pre birth then they are included in patients record. Usually in HV notes there are records relating to number of pregnancies and number of siblings. Some of these documents would be held in the “red book” in my area. It was common for a copy to be shoved in the flap at the back.

[hopefulhalf]

I have to say I have no idea if an adult requested to see/have their medical records if this information would be redacted or not. I don't deal with adults requesting their own records. Interestingly though adults can also request to see their child protection case notes (social services) and similar information about parental background including their parents' care history would be in that.

Hackney Child is a book written by a care leaver who acessed her files as an adult.

[boatyardblues]

I should have asked for a correction on my discharge summary when I had DS2. I told the midwife I’d had no more than 10 units in the whole pregnancy. On my discharge summary it said 10 units per week. 🙄

[MrsNeilGaiman]

Name changed for this. My mum has another, older child conceived through rape. She told me in adulthood.

I had and have absolutely no right to this information and fell strongly that her rights would be compromised if I could access that information.

[NiceGerbil]

'I can only speak for my area but yes if there were concerns or interventions pre birth then they are included in patients record'

The patient here being the child? So if there was a referral to SS for example that would be on the child's medical record for them to read at 18? How long do these things get recorded- if a mother seeks advice for drugs when child is 3, say, at GP. Would that info be added into the child's record?

'Usually in HV notes there are records relating to number of pregnancies and number of siblings'

Are HV notes copied into the child's medical record that they can access later?

'Some of these documents would be held in the “red book” in my area'.
Is red book still the one the parents look after? If so they don't have to give it to child. Are all red book entries copied into child's computerised medical record now? If not then the info is still in the hands of the parents.

[pollylocketpickedapocket]

@ProfessorSlocombe

Woman who don’t engage or who aren’t honest flag up anyway.

Be curious as to how you determine - without analysis - whether a woman is lying or not.

Obviously if they roll into an antenatal reeking of booze saying "never touch a drop", you might have cause. But otherwise ?

Common sense and instinct??

[hopefulhalf]

In our area all health visitor notes are electronic and are considered to comprise part of the child's medical record.

[NiceGerbil]

So bottom line is

Can it be confirmed that previous pregnancies are recorded in the child's notes that they can read at 18.

I honestly can't believe that and if it's true it's been kept very very quiet.

This is an absolute fundamental beach of women's basic right to privacy over what is just about the most sensitive information that exists about her in medical hands.

[NiceGerbil]

I can find nothing on Google about this so far.

[Gurufloof]

Does the child not have a right to an accurate record of their health from the day they were created

Well if we are going down this road, let's add the father into the information shared. He plays a part, we obviously need to know how much he drank, what drugs he did and when and how tight his undies were.
Because then it wont happen. We also need to add how many previous children he created whatever the outcome. If it's good for the woman its twice as good for the man.

This is a terrible idea, I also did not know about this info already being on a child's records. I'm horrified for the implications and potential,fallout.

[hopefulhalf]

Gerbil the best I can tell you is maybe. That information is certainly availible to the HCPs treating the child in many trusts. If your children are under 16 you can request their records and find out what is in them in your area.

[OvaHere]

I can't find anything via Google using numerous different search terms. I'm not saying that because I disbelieve the previous posters but it's not made clear in any information about accessing records.