Mothers alcohol use shown on medical records

[RegularHumanBartender]

I have just stumbled across this on the Sky news homepage and I am horrified. I have no words! Apologies if there is already a thread, I did scan the first page but I couldn't see one.

Talk about reducing women to sacred incubators! I am struggling to form sentences I am so incensed by this. Not sure if this is even the right place to post.

news.sky.com/story/mothers-alcohol-use-could-soon-be-shown-on-childs-medical-record-prompting-privacy-fears-12073153

[FlorenceNightshade]

@StFrancis as a HCP I will always believe that it is in the patients best interests for staff to have all the relevant information. Wether that’s a mother or an infant.

Woman who don’t engage or who aren’t honest flag up anyway. By opening a dialogue about alcohol or drugs or any other risky behaviour there is a chance to provide support.

The issue is complicated because the child becomes a patient when it’s born and it’s medical history starts in utero. You can’t give a full
history without mentioning maternal health.

On balance I think it’s necessary to include the information if it’s available

[ProfessorSlocombe]

Agree with those who say women will simply lie and that's an even worse outcome.

Not quite. Some women will lie - especially those that fall into a demographic to have reason to distrust the state. However as always happens, the naice naive trusting women that have never had a bad experience won't lie. And it'll be them that get scooped up by Operation BabyBeer, as Viz might title it.

[NiceGerbil]

'Woman who don’t engage or who aren’t honest flag up anyway. By opening a dialogue about alcohol or drugs or any other risky behaviour there is a chance to provide support.'

This already happens :/

[Batshitbeautycosmeticsltd]

Woman who don’t engage or who aren’t honest flag up anyway.

Yep, women are all so stupid you see, and HCPs never are, the latter can always tell .

[ProfessorSlocombe]

Woman who don’t engage or who aren’t honest flag up anyway.

Be curious as to how you determine - without analysis - whether a woman is lying or not.

Obviously if they roll into an antenatal reeking of booze saying "never touch a drop", you might have cause. But otherwise ?

[Hardbackwriter]

@NiceGerbil

Fucking hell this is a hard no from me.

A couple of years back they had the idea of testing pregnant women for smoking and I'm pretty sure that didn't get anywhere.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hospitals-should-test-pregnant-women-9434210.amp

The idea seems to be that human rights to privacy, data protection etc etc all go down the pan when you are a woman who is pregnant. Or indeed 'pre pregnant' as we've seen pressed in the USA.

No fuck that and fuck them. We are people not baby vessels.

Agree with those who say women will simply lie and that's an even worse outcome.

They do do this! (Though not at the moment, for Covid reasons). Lots of places 'offer' all women CO tests to see if they smoke at their first antenatal appointment - though I said on the other thread that in my experience a) they don't actually ask all women, they asked my 22 year SIL and lots of other women I know who felt it was definitely because of value judgements made by the midwife but they didn't ask me, they just believed that I don't smoke and b) to a lot of women being asked it doesn't feel as 'voluntary' as it's supposed to be. I was told by another poster (with 'doctor' in their username) that I was wrong, making this up and then (when I said I wasn't making it up) that it was obviously that I was judging my friends, not the midwife, that was the issue here

[NiceGerbil]

'The issue is complicated because the child becomes a patient when it’s born and it’s medical history starts in utero. You can’t give a full
history without mentioning maternal health.

On balance I think it’s necessary to include the information if it’s available'

Starts with sperm and egg surely.

I've read about various things about men or their habits that can effect sperm quality and potentially lead to issues for babies.

Also my understanding is that men who are heavy drinkers can cause damage of various types to their families.

Is all that going to be recorded?

(Rhetorical question).

[Batshitbeautycosmeticsltd]

Let's talk about this support, shall we? What does it involve, how comprehensive is it, how quick and easy to access? Is it like the support of social care as it already is now? In what format is it presented?

I don't want to hazard a guess, but . . .

There are two current threads that are interesting in light of this one. One is about GPs pushing LARC on women and the other is about Diagnosis Detectives and how so many go for years without proper support for their medical conditions.

[Batshitbeautycosmeticsltd]

@ProfessorSlocombe

Woman who don’t engage or who aren’t honest flag up anyway.

Be curious as to how you determine - without analysis - whether a woman is lying or not.

Obviously if they roll into an antenatal reeking of booze saying "never touch a drop", you might have cause. But otherwise ?

Let's guess on this, shall we? I don't think William Hill would even take on that bet .

[NiceGerbil]

Oh and written on their children's health records...

[Hardbackwriter]

On balance I think it’s necessary to include the information if it’s available

But you're making it massively much less likely that it will be available - and, more importantly, that a woman will feel able to actually ask for help or advice on her drinking - if you make people feel like it'll go on a permanent record. If you insist that such stigmatised information is recorded like this you'll just record a load of lies instead and lose any chance to actually improve the situation - who does that help?

[Thenneverendingstorohree]

Women who have drunk to the point of SS involvement, it will be noted on the SS files.

For everyone else, what on earth makes them thing women would tell them?

I’m all for caring for children, but it is clearly going too far.

[ProfessorSlocombe]

@NiceGerbil

'The issue is complicated because the child becomes a patient when it’s born and it’s medical history starts in utero. You can’t give a full
history without mentioning maternal health.

On balance I think it’s necessary to include the information if it’s available'

Starts with sperm and egg surely.

I've read about various things about men or their habits that can effect sperm quality and potentially lead to issues for babies.

Also my understanding is that men who are heavy drinkers can cause damage of various types to their families.

Is all that going to be recorded?

(Rhetorical question).

(Assumes straight face)

You can't do that as it would breach mens right to privacy.

(I'll be honest. My face cracked after I typed "you") .

[CharlieParley]

[quote FlorenceNightshade]@CharlieParley again we are talking about continuing pregnancies. Anti-abortionists are great at twisting rational arguments to fit their agenda.[/quote]
And again, the views of anti-abortionists are rooted in seeing the woman who carries the child as a vessel whose precious passenger must be protected over and above her own needs or rights.

That is the same view espoused also by pro-surrogacy activists, by activists in countries where women who want to continue their pregnancies but miscarry get punished by law for losing their precious passenger. And by many other societies that treat women as second class humans.

If you cannot see that these misogynist viewpoints hold sway beyond the narrow confines of the abortion debate, I cannot make you see it. But all of these arguments, including yours, are rooted in denying the woman personhood as an individual human being and conveying this personhood on her unborn child instead.

We would have a more fruitful discussion if you acknowledged your position for what it is. I don't condemn you for prioritising the child. I understand why you do. I simply disagree that women should give up their own rights in law for the sake of their child.

And as several posters have eloquently explained, not only is this attitude counterproductive, it is also unnecessary. Arguably, one could limit this policy to cases where it is medically indicated. That's still an ethically questionable compromise, but it wouldn't start from the position of denying all pregnant women their rights.

[NiceGerbil]

Bayshit I suspect it's the same as breastfeeding

Tell women what to do and if they don't DOOM think of your baby you selfish bitch

Provide zero support to actually do the thing for those who need it

Any poor outcomes = useless selfish feckless women. Not our fault.

With this any later poor outcomes for the child at school, university, work (:D)...

Well. Mum had 1 half glass of wine at a party at 6 months. It's her fault.

Or even. Mum had half a glass of wine on the day after conception. It's her fault.

Pre pregnancy rules are talked about more... There was a thing about how all women should be considered / consider themselves 'pre pregnant'' while fertile and be treated/ behave as if they might be pregnant in all ways...

Vessels vessels vessels

[FireUnderTheHand]

[quote FlorenceNightshade]@Hardbackwriter you can’t disclose anything to a professional that poses harm or potential harm to a child and have your confidentiality maintained. That’s just a fact.

Most women understand and respect that when they are pregnant the child’s health and well-being is important too. It’s a balancing act that should, imo, put the child first at all times where possible.[/quote]
And that is why women in desperate situations will lie whether DV related, drug related, or otherwise... they will lie out of fear or embarrassment.

I asked my mother about her take (RN for 30+ yrs and medical claims attorney) and her take is that is a violation of the woman's human rights. We have HIPAA in the US which somewhat protects from this type of behavior - in most cases consent is required for info to be released.

The women who abuse substances while pregnant are more likely to lie to Dr. as they are likely lying to everyone else about their use. That is an addict's MO. I have known several addicts that had children. These women don't have their heads on straight because they are addicts and their MO was to show up at after hours parties or house parties while pregnant and after having their children and proceed to snort lines of coke/ecstasy/meth at times with their nursing baby in their lap and then proceed to breastfeed. They would lie right to your face that they were sober with a drink in their hand and enormous pupils due to whatever drug they were imbibing. I cut these people out of my life a long time ago due to the aforementioned as well as other transgressions.

I have a friend that went skydiving and diving (deep sea) multiple times without knowing she was pregnant for the first few months (abnormal cycle her entire life so no shock) - she volunteered the info to her OB/GYN (as well as the fact that she celebrated the activities with having several drinks each time) and they told her to never mention it again while pregnant as it would be viewed as intentionally poor prenatal behavior and could get her slated for CPS intervention. She received no support and was judged for her unacceptable behavior... her only reason to tell the Dr. was due to concern for the baby - she figured that if she hurt the fetus being the selfless person she is she would have aborted as she feared condemning a child to a poor quality health due to activity prior to knowing she was pregnant and received zero insight or guidance beyond 'keep your mouth shut if you want to keep your kid". Luckily all was great but there were some very lonely and hard weeks for her during her second and third trimesters.

The point is, those that engage in reckless behavior while knowingly pregnant are the most likely to lie about it. It would likely have negative impact on the truly honest that are doing everything they can to grow a healthy baby (in addition to being a violation of their right to privacy).

[hopefulhalf]

There is no child in law until birth; the mother/patient’s right to confidentiality is and remains paramount

This is true but hours after a baby is born a new medical record is created it contains the maternal antenatal details as well as the details of the birth (Also previois pregnancies). This happens in every English hospital I have ever worked in.

[Gronky]

I believe Rh disease is placed on a newborn's medical records. Should the same privacy concerns be used to restrict this information and why/why not? Technically, any harm caused is purely down to maternal biology.

[MartiniDry]

It's not just women with alcohol issues who will either lie or simply refuse to answer. I'd do the latter.

I don't have an alcohol problem. I drink occasionally and in moderation and I'll be damned if that's anyone's business but my own.

First they come to stop you from imbibing. How soon after will they come to stop you from having an abortion? Or stop you from bottle feeding?

How soon before they decided that your body is absolutely not your own?

[DisjointedRather]

it is about women's right to privacy in regards to their medical records.

But there isn’t just the woman or her right to privacy to consider. The child has a right to safety, and a right to information that impacts on their safety.

[NiceGerbil]

'Technically, any harm caused is purely down to maternal biology.'

You mean with respect to that it with respect to any possible harm.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

@DisjointedRather

it is about women's right to privacy in regards to their medical records.

But there isn’t just the woman or her right to privacy to consider. The child has a right to safety, and a right to information that impacts on their safety.

No, they don't. There is no right to this information for the child and we have seen that reality played out in lots of ways where it is men's privacy as well as women's that is at stake.

For instance, if you have a genetic disease that puts your child at risk there, the child has no right to be informed and any Dr. who did inform them against the parent's wishes would be breaching the parent's rights.

[NiceGerbil]

The child has a right to safety?

That's an argument that has a natural conclusion in no abortion, restrict the rights and freedoms of women really very severely, backs up ideas about pre pregnancy, and has resulted in at least one woman going to prison for harming a child in utero (by trying to kill herself).

Nope nope nope.

[hopefulhalf]

Disclaimer here I deal with adopted and looked after young people. They have often no contact with their birth family, sometimes the birth mother has died (substance misuse, alcoholic liver disease, hep C or sometimes just misadventure). These people then stand on thd edge of adult life not knowing what time they were born, how much they weighed or even sometimes which hospital. I think they have a right to that information, for me that includes details of the pregnancy. Lets not lose sight of the fact the child's medical records first and foremost belong to the child.

[Gronky]

You mean with respect to that it with respect to any possible harm.

Yes, sorry, harm is a possibility, not a given. I think it's an interesting point of comparison because the transfer of this information 'discloses' medical information about the mother (her body generating antibodies) to the child. I'm not aware of this being contentious but please do let me know if it is.