Mum waits 3 years for autism diagnosis for child - yet transgender diagnosis took a few months.

[SocialConnection]

This poor mother's at her wits end over NHS autism services failure to support her child - while the gender services took a few months to diagnose child as transgender and treat via Zoom.

Those who have children with autism might recognise the characteristics described here?

(Sorry it's from the Mainly Fail)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8523349/A-gender-clinic-agreed-help-boy-admits-change-mind.html

[ButterflyBitch]

My godfather was transsexual. I didn’t even realise he was born a woman until after he’d died and I was told. He had a full head of hair and a bushy beard. So I think some ftm can pass extremely well.
He was quite a large man so any womanly hips were deffo disguised!
I have no idea about autism. He died in his 60’s a few years back so no idea if that would have even been brought up when he transitioned. I do know before he transitioned that he was a lesbian. Obviously identified as a straight guy afterwards. I dunno, he was an old school transsexual and I’d like to think that he’d be really pissed off at the TRA ideology that’s been going on.

[SerenityNowwwww]

Humans are hot wired to recognise sex (and other things) in other humans. It’s a case of ‘something about’ them that you can see - shake, size, the way they move and interact with other people. It’s like if you see a female 6”2 short haired rugby player - you recognise them as a woman even if they don’t fit the ‘norm’.

[TheSingingKettle49]

@SocialConnection

When looking at trans men's faces I've often noticed that when you tune out 'balding & bearded', that is still a readably female face - due to eyes seeming larger and lips seeming fuller, due to generally smaller skull and jaw in females?

Yes, and the shape and size of the neck and forehead. I can’t find the link but there’s a video of people with those green screen dots attached to their bodies and you can tell who is male and who is female just from the dots, you don’t even have to see the actual body.

[Haworthia]

No, I think most trans men I’ve seen have a perpetual teenager vibe about them, visually, both in terms of height and bum fluff beard.

[SerenityNowwwww]

The facial hair always seems a bit whispy - you never see one with a beard like a lumberjack do you?

[Haworthia]

I don’t think so @SerenityNowwwww because I don’t think it’s needed in order to “pass”. IIRC testosterone does cause some minor facial changes. Growing a beard also helps massively.

I think trans men don’t face the same social issues that trans women do, purely because facial hair will always read “male”, even if they’re 5’ 3” and have womanly hips.

[SerenityNowwwww]

I know that trans women can have ‘feminisation’ facial surgery - brow made smaller, jawline refined, Adam’s apple removed (?). I don’t thing there’s a similar ‘masculinisation’ version is there?

[SocialConnection]

When looking at trans men's faces I've often noticed that when you tune out 'balding & bearded', that is still a readably female face - due to eyes seeming larger and lips seeming fuller, due to generally smaller skull and jaw in females?

[Aesopfable]

I also take issue with the fact, that it's only in the article that we find out that Dr Lawson is a transman - it should be stated explicitly at the top as part of his bio.

This is a wider problem with idolising people with ‘lived experience’ as the speakers of the ultimate ‘truth’. It completely ignores their conflict of interest, the fact they cannot be impartial, or that their evidence is generally anecdotal.

[SheWhoMustNotBeHeard]

It's good to get that off my chest.

[SheWhoMustNotBeHeard]

@rogdmum That must be truly difficult for your family. I feel like the whole support services and medical services needs an overhaul and needs education on how to diagnose gender dysmorphia.

@BatShite In theory it seems correct (if you ignore the side effects of course, which can be horrendous) but in practise, once kids are on them, they will go onto cross sex hormones. When you consider without blockers 80-90% of kids desist, and 0% when medicated, then surely its obviously theres a huge issue somewhere and they certainly are not as easy to stop as made out.

Would you be able to point out where the research on this please? I am primarily interested because I am in the process of constructing a letter to National Autistic Society about a q& a on their website they have with Dr Wenn Lawson on transgender issues and who spoke at their Autism, Gender and Sexuality conference in 2019.

While he makes some valid points (eg sensory issues around peeing standing up), on the question of "how can autistic people be best supported in exploring their gender identity?" he says about children:
For instance, is this an obsession with the other gender, a sensory discomfort/like, a phase or interest, or are they telling us this is who they are? Or it might be utterly paramount to act more quickly.

For example, some young people need puberty blockers to give them time to process issues related to GD. This time factor of delaying puberty actually gives everyone time to explore options. If a young person is on the way to puberty, and they are telling you they are transgender, then joining a gender clinic or being placed in a specialist setting to gain access to appropriate support is essential. Once a young person’s voice changes and they are getting taller and sprouting a beard, it’s very difficult to undo. For young trans boys, having to go through menstruation and grow breasts can be an absolute nightmare.

I am asking the NAS to take this page off their website and really review their approach to autism and transgender issues. People will be looking for support and information around transgender and this is number 2 in the search results and there are only 4 results. My main concern is that a lot of children (and adults I guess but I don't know many adults with ASC) with autism are highly suggestible (I know because one of my child has ASC) and would take this to heart. Children with autism can also get fixated on issues (special interest) and once they are hyper-focused on a topic, nothing will dissuade them until they are ready to move on themselves. Add factors such as
poverty/co-occurring conditions/csa/dv in the family/drug abuse in the family/mental health in the family/or a combination of factors to for many children and yet gender dysmorphia is the first priority? Bonkers!

www.autism.org.uk/about/stories/wenn-lawson.aspx

(I also take issue with the fact, that it's only in the article that we find out that Dr Lawson is a transman - it should be stated explicitly at the top as part of his bio. Target audience of people with autism and their families!)

[rogdmum]

OldCrone Yes, I hadn’t seen the earlier media coverage when I posted!

[Soontobe60]

@JellySlice

Did they think that autism can be 'cured' by puberty blockers and cross sex hormones?

Mermaids do.

(Unfortunately I cannot find the link to their statement about how transing a child relieves their autism.)

Yes, they most certainly do. And parents who prefer to take the 'watchful waiting' approach are seen as putting their child at risk of suicide. Shameful.

[JellySlice]

Did they think that autism can be 'cured' by puberty blockers and cross sex hormones?

Mermaids do.

(Unfortunately I cannot find the link to their statement about how transing a child relieves their autism.)

[OldCrone]

It sounds as though this mother hasn’t been pushing it herself, that she’s been conflicted and trying to do what is best for her child as guided by the Tavi.

From the earlier article and this TV interview it seems that this has very much been pushed by the mother who doesn't seem to realise that liking superheroes, 'boys' clothes' and short hair doesn't mean that her daughter is a boy. Even if her daughter thinks that makes her a boy.

[Soontobe60]

@rogdmum

It must be so difficult for you. I do hope your DD gets the appropriate support she needs.

[rogdmum]

Soontobe60 I know quite a few parents who have had the same experience, but at the same time, I know others who did have their child referred for ASD assessment so it seems to very much be down to individual GPs. With DD, she had been seeing a private child psychologist in 2019 and it had been her recommendation that DD be assessed. DD(at that time 13) was initially keen but then changed her mind. At this point she was saying she was non binary. When she decided she wanted to be seen as a boy, we raised the autism referral with her again and she seemed OKish about it so I went along to the GP first to brief her on the whole history.

The GP told me to make an appointment with DD and we’d have a chat. Then at the appointment, the GP ignored me completely, didn’t ask DD anything about an autism assessment - just asked a series of leading questions about gender (including did she want to go on medication) and then said she would refer her to GIDS. I was left utterly gobsmacked and now DD won’t entertain the idea of ASD assessment (we’re not pushing it- just leaving it unless she changes her mind).

There’s a real problem with the system in that some GPs want to push children straight to GIDS but GIDS only focus on gender dysphoria and whether the medical route is suitable for that child- they aren’t looking at the full picture.

[OldCrone]

It’s a scandal that the medical profession are affirming these confused kids, hoping that transition will stop them feeling like that don’t fit in.

How do they think affirmation is going to help these children fit in? A girl who wants to be a boy will always have a girl's body. A boy who wants to be a girl will always have a boy's body. As they grow up and go through puberty they will fit in less and less. Puberty blockers won't help as the child in this article found out:

“They promise you that your breasts will disappear, that your voice will be deeper, that I would look and sound more like a boy. For me, that was the best thing that could have happened,” he said.

Only, Jacob found that wasn’t what happened at all. Far from becoming one of the lads, as he’d hoped, he felt even more alienated from them as their physiques changed and Jacob’s remained the same.

[ListeningQuietly]

Ooh I do wonder whether arguments over how to handle Shiloh are entwined in that divorce

[Soontobe60]

@rogdmum

Most young children will desist by puberty and the Tavi knows this so why don’t they use watchful waiting with therapeutic support? It sounds as though this mother hasn’t been pushing it herself, that she’s been conflicted and trying to do what is best for her child as guided by the Tavi.

The disconnect between autism diagnosis and gender dysphoria diagnosis is appalling. My daughter is older (15), but as soon as her GP heard “gender issues” she refused to refer my daughter (then 14) for an autism diagnosis and instead put her straight on the waiting list for GIDS.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

That's fucking appalling of the GP to do such a thing. Did they think that autism can be 'cured' by puberty blockers and cross sex hormones?

[OldCrone]

This child has been in the news before. Here's an article from 2017.

metro.co.uk/2017/09/14/mother-hits-out-at-parents-who-pulled-sons-out-of-school-because-of-transgender-pupil-6927398/

‘About two-and-a-half, that’s when I noticed that things were changing,’ she explained. ‘But I didn’t think, “he’s transgender”. I just thought he liked boy’s thing’s and boy’s clothes because they’re more comfortable. But by the age of four-and-a-half, I was sure that transgender was what he was.’

Mienna said: ‘It made sense to the kids because Dexter only ever had male friends and wore male clothes. For example, the school sometimes had a thing where it would tell the children to form two lines – one for boys and one for girls. Dexter would always go to the boys’ line. He would also refuse to use the girls’ toilets at school. He very much looked like a boy too, he’s always liked having short hair for example.’

[Aesopfable]

ADOS requires close interaction (joint playing with the same toys, looking at a book together etc), ADI-R could be done via zoom or similar. So I guess it depends on the child as to which is more appropriate.

[JellySlice]

The mother comes across as loving and concerned, but incredibly passive. Does she never say "No" to her child?

It is not necessary to have a diagnosis of ASD before initiating autism-friendly strategies and methods. Many ASD support organisations accept children on the assessment pathway awaiting diagnosis.

A spokesperson for Hertfordshire Community NHS Trust said: ‘Assessments for Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) require close face-to-face contact between the child and the clinician. The measures necessary to prevent the transmission of Covid-19 (including the wearing of face masks where social distancing is not possible) mean that ASD assessments are currently suspended.

This is awful. Why would there be any 'close face-to-face contact between the child and the clinician' in an autism assessment? Many autistic children would not tolerate any close face-to-face contact with a stranger! Certainly wasn't at my dc's ASD assessments (well before Covid). Not only that, but dc had previously been offered assessment by video-calls with clinicians. The service was called Healios. No reason to suspend ASD assessments during Covid when Healios has been available for over a year.

Poor child.

[Haworthia]

IMO, neurodevelopmental disorders should be ruled out as part of a gender dysphoria diagnosis, because ASD and ADHD (and any sensory/executive dysfunction) can have such a significant impact on one's perception and sense of self, along with a lack of awareness on the part of the patient.

Couldn’t agree more @LonginesPrime

I wasn’t aware of the link between autism and anorexia until recently. Some experts even say that if a girl presents with anorexia, it’s a huge red flag for undiagnosed autism, and that alone should trigger an assessment.

Gender dysphoria is the new anorexia. It’s a scandal that the medical profession are affirming these confused kids, hoping that transition will stop them feeling like that don’t fit in.