Gender reassignment surgery has 'real downsides' says Guardian article

[christinarossetti19]

This article was published in the Guardian today, same day as the huge, important piece on detransitioners in the Times.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/11/uks-only-trans-philosophy-professor-to-jk-rowling-harry-potter-helped-me-become-a-woman

This paragraph really jumped out at me, "She describes herself as “surgically curious”, but says she’s not had any interventions to change her body. “If it was possible to wave a wand and become a female in my body, I would. But the reality is, it’s major surgery, and there are real downsides to it.”"

So it's okay for men with AGP who haven't had surgery to voice concerns about it but not for women who have actually experienced surgery and the devastating effects on their life?

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

That piece makes me want to hear more from the children of people who transition in middle age. I bet the author's kids would have some stories to tell.

[ChattyLion]

The adoptive parents and biological parents analogy is very poorly done, especially if this person is a Professor of Philosophy.

[truthisarevolutionaryact]

@WeeBisom

The approach trans rights activists take towards trans kids and trans adults is completely contradictory - but they don’t seem to recognise that.

Trans adults : self id all the way. You are a woman if you feel like a woman. A penis is a female body part . It’s not necessary to have dysphoria or surgery or hormones to be trans. The surgery can be risky so trans women should not be encouraged to get it - we should normalise the idea that women can have dicks. If you say you are female you are female , no matter what your body looks like. There’s no right way to be female- trans women automatically have female bodies.

Trans kids: trans children should be medicalised undergo full transition as early as possible. This is a medical emergency- if kids are allowed to go through the “wrong puberty” they will kill themselves. Trans kids have crippling dysphoria that can only be alleviated by social transitioning, surgery, hormones and hormone blockers. Kids must be medicalised as soon as possible. The risks of surgery pale into comparison to the real and present danger that trans kids will kill themselves. The absolute worst outcome in this case would be to allow a trans child to go through the agony of the wrong puberty. It’s not possible to counsel a trans child to feel happy with their body and accept their body parts - that is evil and conversion therapy.

Such an important post. Thank you WeeBisom

[FantaOra]

There's an interesting conversation on Kathleen Stocks Twitter about this peice.

[NoHaudinMaWheest]

jackiesarmy. I thought when I saw the article that Dumbledore had warned about the mirror's dangers but it was only when I went to look for the exact quote in the book that I realised how apposite it was.

[EarlofEggMcMuffin]

@Packingsoapandwater

The thing is that if it were possible to wave a wand and magically change sex, dysphoric individuals would realise that the nature of their plight is not located where they think it is.

Your body is your interface with the world. Your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, skin, muscles, nerves: all of it provides you with the stimuli that builds your experience of existence.

If you change your body, you change your experience of the world. We are not souls locked in a husk or a shell; the body and personality/character are in a symbiotic relationship. You change the body, you alter

the "soul".

You see this very clearly when people start a sport or get fit, or alternatively when people suffer ill health or become elderly. Their "souls" (characters/personality) change because their interface (their body) is giving them different information about the external world.

Elderly people come to feel vulnerable, not because they've spent eighty plus years on the earth, but because their bodies no longer allow them to sprint away from the metaphorical tiger in the grass, so they feel vulnerable crossing a busy road etc.

Likewise, people gain confidence and strength when they start, say, a couch25k because their muscle tone changes and, suddenly, actions that were tiring before don't seem so difficult.

I say all this because if that magic wand existed, and someone could change sex, you would be talking about a wholesale change in stimuli fed to the "soul".

I find it so weird that postmodernism is blamed for all this identity plight, when it is postmodernism that recognises this precise phenomenon. Postmodernism argues that you can never know the truth of something or someone because every individual experiences the world through a unique set of parameters, so unique that we essentially exist within our own individual universes.

You change those parameters, you change everything.

This is beautifully said.

Humans can have sensory processing difficulties- it's a recognised part of many conditions.
It lead the sufferer to perceive sensations such as the barking dog as being a personal threat, or that wearing sunscreen is highly aversive and anxiety provoking. I dont like the feeling of a fleece jumper, for instance, it makes my teeth water.

At it's most extreme, we see sensory processing disorders in people with mental health difficulties such as OCD, anxiety leading on to depression etc.

It seems to me that there must be some element of sensory processing disorder in the proprioceptive or interceptive functions which mean that the person perceives their body as being "wrong".

Surgical intervention cant address this, as they are directed at the physical part, rather than the sensory system.

Instead, why not follow the treatment protocol for, say, a traumatic amputation to re-educate the brain to the absence of that part.
So, why are sensory interventions not used first?

And, then, there's the fact that sensory perception can be altered by very early attachment experiences.

I cannot understand why what seems the logical neurological pathway for intervention, isn't being followed.

[calllaaalllaaammma]

*and the thing people fail to realise is: who stands to gain from setting gay women and trans women against one another?
Who is it that is trying to keep society misinformed?

If you stifle, shout down and sack Left wing opponants to Trans ideology then don't you think censoring the debate will do more to drive people towards the right than open discussion would however many fluff pieces are run in the Guardian.

[testing987654321]

Wow WeeBisom, well spotted. I know people have made similar points before but you have articulated really well the difference between children and adults.

[JackiesArmy]

I noticed that about the mirror of Erised, NoHaudinMaWheest, but couldn't get my thoughts clear enough to post about it. You have articulated exactly what I was thinking.

JKR is a genius.

[WeeBisom]

The approach trans rights activists take towards trans kids and trans adults is completely contradictory - but they don’t seem to recognise that.

Trans adults : self id all the way. You are a woman if you feel like a woman. A penis is a female body part . It’s not necessary to have dysphoria or surgery or hormones to be trans. The surgery can be risky so trans women should not be encouraged to get it - we should normalise the idea that women can have dicks. If you say you are female you are female , no matter what your body looks like. There’s no right way to be female- trans women automatically have female bodies.

Trans kids: trans children should be medicalised undergo full transition as early as possible. This is a medical emergency- if kids are allowed to go through the “wrong puberty” they will kill themselves. Trans kids have crippling dysphoria that can only be alleviated by social transitioning, surgery, hormones and hormone blockers. Kids must be medicalised as soon as possible. The risks of surgery pale into comparison to the real and present danger that trans kids will kill themselves. The absolute worst outcome in this case would be to allow a trans child to go through the agony of the wrong puberty. It’s not possible to counsel a trans child to feel happy with their body and accept their body parts - that is evil and conversion therapy.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I think she is.

[NoHaudinMaWheest]

I note that the article says that Professor Chappell states that an 'epiphany' came when reading in Harry Potter about the Mirror of Erised which shows one one's deepest desires. For Professor Chappell this was themselves as a woman.
It seems that Professor Chappell did not notice the words of Professor Dumbledore later in the same chapter:

"This mirror will give us neither knowledge or truth. Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is real or even possible."

Is JKR a prophet?

[OldCrone]

This twitter thread is good.
twitter.com/yatakalam/status/1281912778228412419

2014: 50-year-old father of four proclaims himself a woman, though he's keeping his penis to be on the safe side. He says his anger-management issues are typical for trans women. (@transwidows can confirm)

[christinarossetti19]

Ah, thanks.

[testing987654321]

I think what you put is okay by the rules Christina, you used preferred pronouns when talking about a specific person. I called Chappell "he". I think that gets a deletion if reported.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

"Downsides"? Yeah, no shit. Which is why we should stop encouraging people to go down that path.

There is literally nothing about that article that isn't teeth gratingly irritating. Apart from the photo of a lovely smiling Rowling which provides an amusing and illustrative point of contrast. She's a better writer too!

[christinarossetti19]

testing987654321 oh bloody hell. I wrote 'men with AGP' - is that not allowed?

Do I report my posts and ask MN to delete the thread?

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

So have a load of people read JKR's articles, subconsciously agreed with it all, and are now going to present it as 'what they always thought all along' while still getting to vilify her as a nasty witch?

[testing987654321]

Chappell made the decision to begin living as a woman in 2014; her biggest happiness is that “my lovely family have all accepted it and are completely supportive”. Living with a transgender husband/father wasn’t always easy for them, she says. “We can be difficult people to live with; we’re often angry and frustrated. The problem is that there’s something about ourselves that even we don’t understand.”

So, Chappell has had a wife, 4 daughters, a successful career which few women with 4 children could manage (because of wifework) and Chappell now calls themselves a woman AND it's still Chappell's family's job to play the supporting role.

Fuck me, I hope Chappell's wife gets something out of this, because I imagine she is significantly more angry and frustrated than Chappell is.

Rewritten to avoid male pronouns, sorry forgot.

[Packingsoapandwater]

The thing is that if it were possible to wave a wand and magically change sex, dysphoric individuals would realise that the nature of their plight is not located where they think it is.

Your body is your interface with the world. Your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, skin, muscles, nerves: all of it provides you with the stimuli that builds your experience of existence.

If you change your body, you change your experience of the world. We are not souls locked in a husk or a shell; the body and personality/character are in a symbiotic relationship. You change the body, you alter

the "soul".

You see this very clearly when people start a sport or get fit, or alternatively when people suffer ill health or become elderly. Their "souls" (characters/personality) change because their interface (their body) is giving them different information about the external world.

Elderly people come to feel vulnerable, not because they've spent eighty plus years on the earth, but because their bodies no longer allow them to sprint away from the metaphorical tiger in the grass, so they feel vulnerable crossing a busy road etc.

Likewise, people gain confidence and strength when they start, say, a couch25k because their muscle tone changes and, suddenly, actions that were tiring before don't seem so difficult.

I say all this because if that magic wand existed, and someone could change sex, you would be talking about a wholesale change in stimuli fed to the "soul".

I find it so weird that postmodernism is blamed for all this identity plight, when it is postmodernism that recognises this precise phenomenon. Postmodernism argues that you can never know the truth of something or someone because every individual experiences the world through a unique set of parameters, so unique that we essentially exist within our own individual universes.

You change those parameters, you change everything.

[christinarossetti19]

gardenbird48 I also wondered where the voices are of older trans people advising younger people in turmoil that they can be themselves without surgery etc were.

I think they're actually two very different social groups. Firstly, men with AGP who sort of get their life sorted - career, family, home etc - before coming out. May not have spoken about their desire to be seen as a woman for decades, and retain male privilege.

Other group, young women with low self-esteem, mental health problems, interpersonal difficulties or autism struggling with their sexed body in a sexist society, who are so, so vulnerable to falling down the rabbit hole of the internet.

It's really important that these distinctions and differences within the trans community are identified and thought about separately, I think.

[testing987654321]

Chappell made the decision to begin living as a woman in 2014; her biggest happiness is that “my lovely family have all accepted it and are completely supportive”. Living with a transgender husband/father wasn’t always easy for them, she says. “We can be difficult people to live with; we’re often angry and frustrated. The problem is that there’s something about ourselves that even we don’t understand.”

So, this man has had a wife, 4 daughters, a successful career which few women with 4 children could manage (because of wifework) and he now calls himself a woman AND it's still his family's job to play the supporting role.

Fuck me, I hope his wife gets something out of this, because I imagine she is significantly more angry and frustrated than he is.

[HandsOffMyRights]

Sorry, I mean transman.

[HandsOffMyRights]

I've seen several of these interviews now. Has anybody ever seen one about an older trans man in the same position (married, 4 kids)?

[gardenbird48]

So this person is aware that ‘there are downsides to surgery’ (no sh*t!) and it sounds like he has decided the benefits don’t outweigh the risk. Where are the older trans community members (like this person - who haven’t had their voices silenced as truscum) voicing this concern and advising the young trans people to exercise extreme caution because of the risks of surgery. Or does Sophie just care about their own experience and has no interest in helping the younger trans community?