Is it fair to absolve my mother and, instead, blame men as a class?

[Herja]

Following a disagreement, where I was told it seems a bit 'man hating feminist', I'm interested in your views.

I had an early childhood in which I was neglected and occasionally abused. This was to a fairly serious level, though not all the time.

This happened because my mother was a raging drug addict. BUT, I have had hundreds of conversations with her; I know why she was a drug addict - it was because she was raped multiple times by multiple men from the age of 13. In ways which were horrific. I can actually remember some of it.

So rather than blame my mother, I blame men as a class for my childhood. And I blame men as a class, rather than my mother, for my resulting poor mental health. I actually have a good relationship with my mum.

I'm pretty set in this view to be honest, but is it fair (Like I think)? Or is it not right to blame men for this (As I have been told)?

[stumbledin]

Sorry if in reviving this thread I have put the OP in the position of having her mother slagged off by people who seem to think victims of abuse should somehow remain saintly and the perfect mother through out.

Its as dumb as saying someone who suffered a serious illness and so wasn't able to properly care for their daughter is some sort of demon.

In an ideal world - of course it would be great if every mother was perfect.

OP's mother has survived trauma and come out the other side.

So Herja hope both you and your mum can keep strong and maybe each of you can join a survivors support group where people certainly would not sit on their high horse and pass judgement.

[HeistSociety]

You can contextualised your mother's abuse of you. That's helpful, so long as your compassion for your mother isn't obstructing your right to have and feel anger at your abusive childhood, and also at your mum.

Rape culture clearly played a role in your mum's dysfunction. Absolutely you can see that and feel anger about it. Rape culture is part of patriarchy.

But it's ok to be angry with your mum too. You were a child; you were doubly harmed. By rape culture, and by your mum.

Compassion is big enough for both feelings - anger at your mum for what she did to you, and an understanding of, and rage at, the misogyny that shaped her.

[ShinyFootball]

A complex question

OP I totally get where you're coming from and it's entirely up to you how you deal with and feel about your personal situation

Two things your post made me think

It is not a good idea at a wider level to exonerate people because of their past. That could bleed into the law and the idea that male rapists could use any kind of childhood difficulty as a defence is not a good place to go. Because any understanding for the type of situation you describe would be turned to the benefit of men

It also made me think of a poster who had worked in an in patient facility for teenage girls with severe mental health issues. When she spoke to them she realised that had all endured horrific sexual abuse. But that was never acknowledged. The damage that is done by men as a class (namalt) is something that society simply does not want to face up to.

I am glad that you have come to terms with what happened and have a good relationship with your mum.

[Goosefoot]

No, "men as a class" is an abstraction, something that you could, for example, make a statistical statement about.

You can't blame men as a class for a specific action. That's not what blame is. In fact I think that blame as such is not a very useful emotion, it's a way of discharging a certain amount of emotional pain, but it's not really the best way because it is so prone to the kinds of falsities you are trying to justify here - you have to find someone to pin it on, or you have to shift it from places that cause more pain. An abstract entity like men as a class seems ideal, as it doesn't seem to impact anyone real, but it stops you from seeing what's really happened and it also could well end up compromising your ability to have good relationships with individual, real men.

I think what you are really trying to get at with your mum is thinking about the extent to which she is really culpable for her actions. Often when any of us do bad things, we have only limited culpability - things really do get in the way of people being their best selves and making the best choices. Lack of understanding, lack of good role models, emotional distress, some sort of compromised self-control or decision making, fear, illness, addiction. You could go on and on.

It sounds like your mom had a hard time, and all kinds of barriers to doing what she ought to have, and maybe should have. It's even possible that at by certain point in her life, addiction meant she had no real ability to make choices - drugs can sometimes have that effect, destroying our capacity for choice. In most cases though, people do bear some responsibility for choices they made along the line, most of us have a fair amount of responsibility most of the time. Maybe only rarely do we make a perfectly informed, willed choice to do evil because we want to and decide to in free way.

Ultimately, we can't know how much at fault others are, we may guess, but that's what it is. Often we don't even know with regard to our own self. If you can let go of the need to figure it out, it's very healing. You may or may not be able to have a relationship with the person at that point, if you can, that's great, sometimes there has been too much damage.

[TehBewilderness]

No, "men as a class" is an abstraction, something that you could, for example, make a statistical statement about.

It makes perfect sense to blame the ruling class for the rules they made that oppress women.
They could have stopped individually and collectively at any time over the last several thousand years and instead chose to glorify male violence instead. Why shouldn't the ruling class own the rules they make?

[Gronky]

It is not a good idea at a wider level to exonerate people because of their past. That could bleed into the law and the idea that male rapists could use any kind of childhood difficulty as a defence is not a good place to go.

Perhaps forgiveness would be a better concept to apply than exoneration?

It makes perfect sense to blame the ruling class for the rules they made that oppress women.They could have stopped individually and collectively at any time over the last several thousand years and instead chose to glorify male violence instead.

I think that overstates the control the majority of individuals have over society. I see it more as a big, unfortunate Ouija session, albeit with a minority of hands exerting more control on the planchette. I don't mean to say any particular individual is incapable of influencing society but I don't think the outcome is merely the linear sum of every individual's realised intentions, multiplied by their status.

[Evelefteden]

It’s a really interesting thought and I hear you.

I’m NC with my mother, her MH is too much for me and she is one of the most toxic people I know. I had a dreadful childhood with her.

But I know her MH absolutely stems from being raped over a number of years along side her sister in care homes as a child. Her sister is killing her self by starving herself and drinking to the point she has liver failure shr too is NC with her kids . I didn’t have the mother I should have had as a child and because of that it impacted my life well in to my late 20s.

I’ve seen a hideous facebook page that was for pedophiles today with tens of thousands of likes on it, it’s on the news about grooming gangs and celebrities getting pulled in by the FBI for sex trafficking, women getting absolutely battered by TRA so yes, I’m actually starting to see men as class a big issue.

Sorry for what you’ve been through

[ShinyFootball]

'It is not a good idea at a wider level to exonerate people because of their past. That could bleed into the law and the idea that male rapists could use any kind of childhood difficulty as a defence is not a good place to go.

Perhaps forgiveness would be a better concept to apply than exoneration?'

This way lies restorative justice.

Inappropriate with many types of offence especially ones with a relationship/ power dynamic.

If you Google you will find that there are groups pushing for this including in sex offences.

Sex offences are very serious often with long term impact. In most cases the victim knows the perpetrator.

It would be handy if victims could say I forgive you job done. But these things should be treated as the serious crimes they are.

[ShinyFootball]

It also invokes the idea that women and girls should 'be nice' and understanding etc.

With other more minor offences, and if the perpetrator is genuinely sorry, there is maybe a place for it.

In sex offences, nope.

It's ok for women to be angry.

I'm not religious so I don't really get the forgiveness thing anyway tbh. Why is it so important to forgive? Who does it benefit?

This came from USA I think where obviously there's a big religious thing going on.

[Goosefoot]

@TehBewilderness

No, "men as a class" is an abstraction, something that you could, for example, make a statistical statement about.

It makes perfect sense to blame the ruling class for the rules they made that oppress women.
They could have stopped individually and collectively at any time over the last several thousand years and instead chose to glorify male violence instead. Why shouldn't the ruling class own the rules they make?

Oly if you define "the ruling class" as the people who actually make the rules, in which case you are talking about a concrete set of people, individuals who are enacting something.

If you define ruling class more broadly though, there may well be members of the ruling class who have never made any rules, have no power within that class, or oppose what is being done by others in that class. They don't bear any responsibility for what they haven't done.

A specific act - say passing Bill C-16, has been done by specific people who are responsible for their actions. Others who are in the same group by dint of their parentage, wealth, racial designation, sex, are not responsible for Bill C-!6.

[Goosefoot]

The religious concept of forgiveness is hardly an American invention!

[Evelefteden]

@ShinyFootball

It also invokes the idea that women and girls should 'be nice' and understanding etc.

With other more minor offences, and if the perpetrator is genuinely sorry, there is maybe a place for it.

In sex offences, nope.

It's ok for women to be angry.

I'm not religious so I don't really get the forgiveness thing anyway tbh. Why is it so important to forgive? Who does it benefit?

This came from USA I think where obviously there's a big religious thing going on.

Shiny op is taking about forgiving her mother not the men.

[ShinyFootball]

Sure but they are way big on it.

[ShinyFootball]

Eve yes but the conversation has moved on.

[Gronky]

This way lies restorative justice.
Inappropriate with many types of offence especially ones with a relationship/ power dynamic.

Sorry, I meant WRT Herja and her mother, on a private basis. I'm not sure restorative justice is applicable in either case at a judicial level, a both involve a power dynamic.

I'm not religious so I don't really get the forgiveness thing anyway tbh. Why is it so important to forgive? Who does it benefit?

I'm a card carrying atheist (though I had a religious upbringing). Personally, I think forgiveness (genuine forgiveness, not playground 'shake hands' nonsense) if achievable can help heal the victim because hatred burns in a very particular way that, in my limited experience, has unpleasant health consequences. I don't believe it's universally applicable or achievable and it can only really come from within; people can be helped there but can't be driven to it.

[Apileofballyhoo]

OP

I happily blame my DH's parents for many of his MH issues because I love him and think his issues are largely as a result of his childhood. I also remind myself and him that he is an adult and has to take responsibility for his choices. I blame my MIL's parents for her MH issues. I also feel both compassion for her and that she should take responsibility for her actions/choices. I never thought of blaming the patriarchy but it makes perfect sense if I think about it. I won't explain why except to say Roman Catholic Ireland 1940s/50s/60s.

What happened to your mother is horrific.

Of course NAM blah blah but that doesn't mean the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Also it's my life and I'll decide myself what I think is right or wrong when other people's actions affect me. By blame - I believe those people/ that system caused suffering and they/it are responsible for it.

You do what's best for you.

[Bufferingkisses]

My mother went through a similar upbringing to yours (started earlier, happened more often than you describe). I don't blame her for my childhood. I know she did all she could to be the best she could be for me. Sometimes it was enough, sometimes not, sometimes more than I deserved. She did her best, we have an excellent relationship now.

I don't blame men as a class for what happened to her or, by extension, me. I blame the individuals involved for their direct wrongs. I am aware of the patriarchal establishment that meant she wasn't protected and fight for better than that for my children and grandchildren. But blaming a "class" is worryingly close to the start of racism or misogyny. It, for me, falls into two wrongs don't make a right.

[Gronky]

@Goosefoot

The religious concept of forgiveness is hardly an American invention!

I wouldn't even say it's specifically a religious one, though it does feature in some religions.

[Evelefteden]

Ah yes I see. Good night!

[ShinyFootball]

It features pretty heavily in Christianity I would say.

And having consumed plenty of their media, it seems to be a big deal. I've seen loads of people after terrible things say 'i forgive them' like a standard thing to say or something.

Anyway I don't forgive the people who have done (some) bad things to me. I think anger and then if possible forgetting over time is more useful. Depends how serious it was.

Hate doesn't factor. I agree hate is not a beneficial emotion.

[netflixismysidehustle]

I understand what you're saying but abuse is often cyclical. What if the rapists were abused by their parents? What if those parents were abused by their parents?

I'm not saying that rapists can't help it because they were adults who chose their actions. When I heard about the horrible life that Baby P lived, I remember thinking had he survived then it wouldn't be surprising if he became a violent man too.

I was physically abused by my mum and 100% blame her. I have been NC for 20 years and have never introduced her to my kids because I want the cycle of abuse to end with me.

If this is how you want to deal with your past then this is how you should deal with things. Your past is your burden to bear and it doesn't matter what I think really.

[Gronky]

I think anger and then if possible forgetting over time is more useful.

That, to me, is a form of passive, silent forgiveness; keeping a wider perspective in mind or, at least, not holding on to a narrow one.

[Griefmonster]

I hear you and understand your reasoning OP. With love for you and your mother ❤️

[ShinyFootball]

Oooh gronky that's not nice.

You don't know what or who I am thinking about when I wrote that.

Don't classify my emotions for me please. Don't tell me I am engaging in passive (!) forgiveness (!). It's not ok to tell me my anger is passive and my forgetting is forgiveness.

[Goosefoot]

People often have an odd idea of what forgiveness is. That it means saying something was ok, or not so bad, or didn't have consequences, or you'll pretend it didn't happen. It doesn't mean forgoing legal action or anything like that either. In some cases, some of those things might be appropriate but that isn't a requirement of forgiveness.

Essentially it means giving up holding on to what you can't control, and what you can't know. Which is pretty much everything to do with the other person. You can't really know what their problem was, you can't change it, you can't necessarily make them understand or feel sorry, you can't redress some sort of universal balance of justice. So you let that go, and it becomes possible to move forward and deal with whatever you have or don't have now. Often it's a process, but without it, you end up held down and burdened by all kinds of things you can't actually affect.