HR database sex and gender

[FemaleAndLearning]

What should a human resources database ask about your sex and gender and how should the questions be asked?
Personally I think there should be two questions, maybe on the same page.

I don't like the question what is your gender with answer options being male, female, non-binary and possibly prefer not to say. As this conflates sex and gender.

How can HR monitor sex discrimination if we only have gender?
What are HR actually asking the question for? Why bother?
Is there any guidance on this? From HR point of view being seen to be inclusive is what it is about, but what are the pitfalls?

Would something like this be acceptable?
What is your sex? Male, female
What is your gender? Man, woman, trans, non-binary, other (specify).

[EmpressLangClegInChair]

Ignore the derailing....

[Strangerthantruth]

If trains all shuffled around the tracks without numbers on them who would care? Negligible.

[Strangerthantruth]

If you think describing males as males is demonisation then that's on you.

[isabellerossignol]

The effect on statistical recording of matters such as pay of accepting trans individuals in their affirmed gender will be negligible.

That's just not true and you must know it. In a workplace where a very highly paid male suddenly announces he must be classed as female it can skew the statistics on average salaries significantly. Particularly in a small organisation.

[RobinMoiraWhite]

Thankfully I’ve not had to come against gender identity/trans issues in our work place to challenge this though.

This is the important post from Buffalocauliflower.

The number of trans individuals is still so tiny that the (rather creepy) obsession with denying trans individuals recognition and a quiet life on the part of certain feminists is either a rather silly diversion for more important matters or deeply unpleasant. The effect on statistical recording of matters such as pay of accepting trans individuals in their affirmed gender will be negligible.

But sure, carry on demonising your chosen minority.

[Strangerthantruth]

Female and learning.

As you can see from the document identity data is optional and voluntary. No legal requirements at all for any of this. Reporting on identity data from these collection exercises is of very little use. It's a big so what. Reports are given to senior executives who spend a minute looking at it then move on and instantly forget it. It has no value whatsoever to the running of a business. Even Stonewall are scraping around in the document to try to articulate any benefits of all this invented work.

[Strangerthantruth]

HR systems are two things, a database and a front end web tool. The database isnt really customisable, only the web based front end, so you can mask a sex field with the word gender on the web tool. It is expensive to develop customized web tools and as HR is an overhead it's a massive waste of money just to appease the identity politics.
Employees only see the front end, the employee self service. Managers see a bit more sometimes ie headcount data, but HR and payroll use the actual database. As I've said payroll only accepts male and female with ID and the rest is fluff put there as window dressing.

[BettyFilous]

Our HR system only records “gender” in the personal details section. They’ve done away with sex (unless it is held in a background table that staff can’t see). I queried it with my local HR manager, who asked the top team. Apparently it took a lot of effort to implement the change and they don’t intend to change it back. I will be changing my response to the refused option.

[FemaleAndLearning]

Stranger
Thank you for that document. Funny that Stonewall mention non-binary in the glossary but don't have an option in their example questions to choose non-binary. Also they use male/female as gender choices, how can this be counted if this is the kind of document HR may refer to?

Is there any legal requirements that need to be met by HR?

[Strangerthantruth]

documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:76f52c85-727c-4a79-b7c3-99094e85b606
This is Stonewall guidance on what to do with your HR system in support of indoctrination. As you can see they suggest ways of persuading and bribing people to supply data. There is no legal or statutory requirement for the info and most organizations are pretty clueless as to what to do with it once they have collected it as it's very little use to anyone.

So a hundred people tell us they are gay? Who cares.

It's all voluntary and of little purpose and you are all completely at liberty to igore it.

[Purpleartichoke]

He only needs your sex, but if they don’t collect gender, I suppose some people will lie. So I do like collecting both. Gender can even be freeform

[FemaleAndLearning]

Jonb123
Had a quick look at ACAS. They talk a lot about Equality Protected characteristics. They have some trans documents that use the term cis. ACAS say it is okay to collect data on protected characteristics (no mention of things outside the Act) under certain conditions. They also say you can discriminate for a job if it is appropriate (female in a refuge, Catholic priest in a church).

They have a document you can download but I can't open word on my phone so will take a look tomorrow.
www.acas.org.uk/employer-decision-protected-characteristic/equality-and-diversity

[bellinisurge]

"would a transwoman harrassing a female member of staff be recorded as make it female?"
Unless the transgender person has a GRC, they must be treated , in this scenario, as male, surely.

[bellinisurge]

Gender is not a protected characteristic. Shouldn't be collecting other info about them. There are specific rules about recording and handling information related to a person who as a gender recognition certificate. Those rules don't apply to everyone.

[Jonb123]

Got to have "sex" for HR as its a protected characteristic that needs kept track of, gender isn't. ACAS are good, you could ask for some advice there in HR.

[FemaleAndLearning]

Are organisation obligated to collect information under the Equality Act if do it should record sex and gender reassignment? If they collect data outside this is it allowed under GDPR? I guess if it states why it is being collected and how it will be used this will cover them under GDPR?

Lysis I too like the geeky, technical approach.

[Lysistrataknowsherstuff]

I used data protection principles when talking to our HR about the system - the principle of data minimisation is key. Why are they collecting this? What is the purpose? If they have no purpose then do they even have a lawful basis for collecting it in the first place.

Yes I'm a geek.

[FemaleAndLearning]

Thanks for the ideas. Yes we do a tight to work check too and use passports!

They poo pooed me when I said there was hundreds of genders to list saying they would use other. Apparently I have a minority view so I was discounted which didn't seem very inclusive to me!

I like the idea of suggesting a masculine to feminine scale.

Also what about harrassment would a transwoman harrassing a female member of staff be recorded as make it female?

[Antibles]

It should record sex only. Gender is nothing but the social construct. of masculinity/femininity. Gender = sex role stereotype. Why would an HR department want or need to record sex role stereotypes?

Play them at their own game. If they are talking about gender as inner floaty essence, they will need to provide an exact definition of gender plus a drop down list of all 132 genders (or however many it is now).

Even better, perhaps if they don't want to use a long gender list, they could incorporate a sort of spectrum thing on the sheet, ranging from totally masculine at one end to totally feminine at the other and ask responders to mark where they feel their essence sits. As they will realise, this will look as ridiculous as it is, and what could such data possibly be used for?

[Strangerthantruth]

HR systems are usually used to provide data to payroll systems. HMRC only accepts male and female. Usually when an employee is put on the payroll they have to prove their identity and right to work. So passports are usually used. People do get these documents changed. Most of us use this payroll data field for gender pay gap and equal pay.

Identity however is a different data field, and yes, organisations are being led to believe they must "monitor" people at work. They don't have to of course but there is a massive pyramid of consultants and other alleged experts doing all this monitoring of us at work. It's all voluntary though, no one has to complete identity or race or anything other than the HMRC requirements of male or female (which is very usefuly analysed by the office of national statistics ONS)

In fact the last pay gap calculations I looked at on ethnicity, the highest paid group refuse to give any data. Why should they, it's not a benign request, it's idealogical monitoring.

I know most of you think HR is universally stupid however it is the diversity and inclusion sect of employees and external bodies that drives this stuff.

[Lordfrontpaw]

Surely if they are opted into a health scheme you need to know their sex - no point in calling a woman up for a prostate check really. Surely sex is needed to calculate health insurance too?

[popehilarious]

I would suggest they need to include a glossary and instructions on how to find out if you have a gender, and if so, what it is. Everyone seems to have different interpretations of the word.

[TheShoesa]

You make a really good point regarding risk assesments.

We know that the world is biased towards men. The sex of people is what is important in terms of pay and health and safety, not their gender identity ffs.

Could you use the H&S slant with HR?

[BuffaloCauliflower]

HR here. Our system says gender because it’s an American system we bought in and can’t be changed, but the only options are male and female, as far as I’m concerned it applies to sex and that’s how I use it. Thankfully I’ve not had to come against gender identity/trans issues in our work place to challenge this though.