Guardian interview with Juno Dawson

[RoyalCorgi]

The Guardian is once more peddling male fantasies of what a teenage girl is:

www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/11/juno-dawson-trans-alice-wonderland-interview-spice-girls

Dawson has written a novel based on Alice in Wonderland, but with a trans lead character:

'Wonderland is also a wake-up call to anyone who believes gender reassignment might be a happy-ever-after. Alice has recently returned to school after three months in hospital following a suicide attempt. “While I’m delighted with my perky little boobs,” she says, “I was profoundly disappointed that my urge to cut myself didn’t vanish with the first milligram of oestrogen to pass my lips.” Her problems, Dawson points out, are those of all too many young women. “When I’m at the Hay book festival or at Yale, these teenagers come into my signing queues and they are scarred. It must be talked about because it permanently affects girls.”'

Yes, teenage girls are really delighted with their perky little boobs, you misogynist little creep.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

Sucks for them that we're going to do it anyway, eh?

[OldCrone]

Has there been a memo?

The response I got from MNHQ when I asked why my post had been deleted was that it was assumed that I was using the g word about a particular individual. I thought it was completely clear I was talking about a group of men in Rotherham and others like them.

It seems that use of that word on this thread will always be assumed to be referring to a specific individual.

It's very difficult to explain what's going on here without using that particular word or being too explicit about why the posts are being deleted. This makes it difficult for other people to comment without risking deletion because they don't know what the posts said or why they were deleted.

Obviously some people outside of MN have an interest in making it difficult for us to discuss this topic.

[HorseRadishFemish]

Has

[HorseRadishFemish]

I thought we couldn't say A words, G words and P words?

He's there been a memo?

[WeetabixBananaHipsterFFS]

I was going to say ‘gonads’, but I now understand what it is we’re not allowed to talk about

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

Ah!

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

If you own a dog beauty parlour you are one of these, kittens

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

(Has no idea what the g word could be. The p words I know we're forbidden to mention.)

[OldCrone]

I have no idea why my last post was deleted.

ScreamingBeans is that the one that I replied to (also deleted)? I reported my post and got an explanation. Any post on this thread containing the g word gets deleted.

[OldCrone]

I know others on this thread have said this already but I am absolutely disgusted by the idea that a healthy sex life for a teenage girl is sex with multiple married men.

And we should be able to discuss how inappropriate a book which promotes this idea is for the very young girls who are in the age group this book is written for.

Who benefits if these girls grow up thinking this behaviour is normal and desirable? Is there a word for people who persuade and encourage girls to think this?

[HorseRadishFemish]

"Woke" is the new buzzword - easier to say than misogynist. (And spell!)

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

I had the same experience. Whole group of female friends who had a grand old time shagging around and indulging in recreational chemicals, only one who came close to the sort of lifestyle Juno seems to think would be sexy and exciting for a teenage girl. She had been sexually abused by her dad, who died when she was 16, which she then decided must have been her fault for sometimes wanting him dead. Predatory men would circle her like sharks smelling blood in the water.

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

Yes, the 'prude' idea is useful for people who would remove boundaries. I recall it as a powerful insult to a teenager to be prudish or frigid.

Of course, girls lived on the knife edge of frigid/prude or slag, but you didn't see that at the time.

It's one of the reasons I think 'sex positive' movement was a good and healthy thing - I appreciate many here don't agree, but as I experienced it it was largely about older women helping younger women to find information, self knowledge, boundaries, and gain a very thorough and robust understanding of consent.

[TheCuriousMonkey]

I know others on this thread have said this already but I am absolutely disgusted by the idea that a healthy sex life for a teenage girl is sex with multiple married men.


I had a fairly wild adolescence. My friends and I did indulge in some quite risky behaviour with regards to sex, drugs etc. But for the majority of us we knew when to stop, we knew what was and wasn't appropriate, we grew out of the risk taking and have become sane(ish) and responsible adults.


There was however one of our group of friends who didn't know when to stop, who seemed to seek out the riskiest behaviour, who had sex with multiple men, including older married men, who took more, harder drugs than the rest of us.


We found out later (although we had suspected for a long time) that she was sexually abused through her childhood by her father. Her behaviour was pathological. She wasn't able to stay on the right side of risky because she was damaged and vulnerable.


She died in her early 40s from the lifetime of self harm. Her life was a tragic example of the impact of CSA. Healthy teenagers may indulge in risky behaviour as they grow up and find their way in the world. But sex with multiple married men is not something healthy teenagers do.

[ScreamingBeans]

It's why they characterise us doing so as pearl-clutching prudes.

No teenager wants to be like Mary Whitehouse, so if they can be persuaded that any older woman who is talking sense about sex is a frigid old prude, they won't listen to her, will they?

They'll listen to those who don't have their best interests at heart.

I have no idea why my last post was deleted.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Yes, such a good point. So true. The wisdom of experience. Dawson does not have that, not having been a teenage girl.

[Datun]

Theprodigalkittenreturns It's worth pointing out here that most women have that shift in perspective as they get older, and can see the ways in which either they or other girls they knew were taken advantage of as teenagers, but Dawson, who's rapidly approaching middle age, apparently has not experienced that shift

"Goodness, yes. What an excellent point. That is very telling."

Very good point. Experience is a wonderful thing. One of the reasons why older women talking and comparing notes is frowned on by a lot of men.

[ifonlyus]

Forever must have been the most borrowed book from the library when I was aged 14 in the late 80s.

Theprodigalkittenreturns It's worth pointing out here that most women have that shift in perspective as they get older, and can see the ways in which either they or other girls they knew were taken advantage of as teenagers, but Dawson, who's rapidly approaching middle age, apparently has not experienced that shift

Goodness, yes. What an excellent point. That is very telling.

[NotBadConsidering]

I can’t look someone called Ralph in the eye without thinking about Forever.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Forever doesn't exactly shy away from sex (I remember reading it and marking pages in Year 8!)

Forever was passed around everyone in my year.

[JoeExoticsEyebrowRing]

Interesting to compare this to say, Judy Blume's Forever... One is about a 17 year old girl who embarks on her first sexual relationship with her boyfriend who generally treats her well, the other is about a 17 year old who shags multiple older married men they met online. Forever doesn't exactly shy away from sex (I remember reading it and marking pages in Year 8!) but it's all very healthy, the main character has a great sense of her own self worth and its all very vanilla, which to me, is what first sexual experiences should be when you are just starting out.

I guess Dawson and their ilk would describe Forever as prudish and twee these days.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Ah yes, Paris Lees article about the 'sexiest things about sex' where Paris ripped apart a female journalist's take on sex and came in to replace it with their own heavily pornified and male flavoured view instead - still a womans viewpoint though apparently...

Oh, of course. Absolutely. Totally. Who would ever doubt that?

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

It's worth pointing out here that most women have that shift in perspective as they get older, and can see the ways in which either they or other girls they knew were taken advantage of as teenagers, but Dawson, who's rapidly approaching middle age, apparently has not experienced that shift. There's a reason for that, and it has to do with being unable to empathize with a life experience that Dawson did not share.

[RumbaswithPumbaas]

Thanks, it’s funny how much more you reflect on your own childhood/teenagehood when you have daughters approaching that age..

[OldCrone]

Excellent post Rumbas. This novel really doesn't sound like it should be marketed to impressionable young teenagers.

I'd like to thank the people who have been reporting posts on this thread for making me think more deeply about what is going on. Making me rewrite my post in a non deletable form forced me to think about it more and helped me to understand.