What can we do as a society, and as parents, to reduce the number of girls who mistakenly transition?

[ShastaBeast]

Aside from addressing the issues within the medical profession.

I’ve been reading the occasional thread with interest. I’ve always been open and understanding but can also see the dangers. I know a couple of FtM people, one as a teen with ASD who seemed very much a girl, albeit a “tomboy”.

I have a nine year old awaiting an ASD assessment (she already has another diagnosis). In the last year she has embraced becoming a “tomboy” along with another girl. There’s clearly a lot of gender stereotyping going on in the playground, one eight year old girl declared she “is a tomboy because she likes robotics” (she doesn’t have brothers). DD has asked whether she is a girl or boy, and similar, before - obviously she knows she is a girl. I’ve reinforced that girls can do/dress/act however they want and it doesn’t mean they are boys, and vice versa. I remember lots of “tomboys” and women who weren’t overtly feminine (make up, dresses etc) when I was at school.

Are there any resources or thing we should do to help girls be comfortable becoming women and combat the drift towards identifying as trans? Is there anything for schools and parents specifically - our school don’t even let girls wear trousers! I want to show her that being a woman is a good thing and to see the changes to her body as positive too.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Lots of great suggestions so far.
I only have one tiny add.
They should add to sex education puberty curriculum not just how your body changes but also how mentally your identity will still be formulating. So, when it comes to sexuality or gender those do not really settle until your early 20s. Sort of like when you get your wisdom teeth, that is when you are wise enough to know yourself.
Right now, the activist keep pushing the self-ID to lower and lower ages. And there is nothing countering that. They literally think a 4yr can decide that they are a different sex, their sexuality, their gender, all of it and honestly the truth is a 4yr old really only knows that they are a human child instead of a puppy.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Wake the general public up to the fact that Stonewall has been viewed and treated as a neutral expert group but is in fact a biased political lobby group with a very specific agenda, and should be treated as such.

Get Stonewall out of schools, and Mermaids, and any other political lobby with an agenda. Revise all policies that have been written in conjunction with these politically biased group. Create a strong nationwide demand that everything is thoroughly and properly impact assessed, and that policies must meet ALL needs by reasonable adjustments, not throw some groups under the bus to favour other groups.

Remove the gag from all services that insist they may only affirm, and instead weight them towards assessing and meeting additional needs and underlying reasons contributing towards the child's dysphoria.

Massively invest in CAMHS, with a strong brief that a ring fenced proportion of this investment must be resources for early intervention, with strong, quickly accessed assessment pathways and practical support for primary aged children, particularly in managing anxiety and identifying and supporting ASDs in girls.

Launch an initiative or group govt funded that focuses on body positivity, accepting and connecting with your body as it is, alongside teaching respect for boundaries and consent. For older kids this needs to strongly address the heavy objectifying of female bodies, the issues around porn, and sexual harassment/assault. Teach them to look critically at messages in advertising, run the whole lot of them through a teen version of the Freedom Programme, for younger ones work hard on consent and respect for other people's boundaries.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I don’t think we can realistically ban children (under 18s) from the internet. Many schools now have digital textbooks and online homeworking sites. By secondary school, most children get their homework assigned on a webpage or via email.
I know my kids have also found several YoUTube channels that have revision videos and lectures which help them study for exams.

[hipsterfun]

Explain sexism.

Explain human biology.

Both in as much detail as possible, appropriate to age of child.

[littlbrowndog]

Yes Michelle. All of that

For me the biggest. Get them lobby groups away from schools and our children

Stop these lobby groups writing stuff for schools councils governments

These lobby groups are not the laws

[ValancyRedfern]

Children in schools are actively being taught that if they don't fit with gender stereotypes they are non-binary or trans. I am part of a PSHE teachers group where lots of plans are shared and it is all accepted unquestioningly. When I tentatively suggested we might be reinforcing gender stereotypes I was, predictably, told my transphobia had no place in schools and I shouldn't be a teacher. Unless we can change this we're on a hiding to nothing.

[BlackForestCake]

Kids need to be encouraged to challenge teachers when they come out with Stonewall bollocks. I remember how scary it can be to speak out against the teacher but most teachers know it's nonsense.

[ScrimshawTheSecond]

Valancy, that's shocking. For what it's worth, the teachers I've discussed this with have very grave concerns about gender ideology, but wouldn't jeopardise their careers by saying so openly.

As for kids standing up to it - recall the boy in an Aberdeenshire school who was expelled for questioning the idea that there were more than two genders? I'm not saying they shouldn't, just that I can understand why teachers and pupils avoid saying or questioning any of this. Maybe this is where parents actually have to take the risk on, on behalf of their kids and the teachers. And I suspect this may be why mumsnet is so targeted.

We are the ones who have to raise it, aren't we? They can't sack or expel us.

[rodgmum]

Can I ask any teachers on this thread, are teachers allowed to contact any of these lobby groups (Stonewall etc) about a specific student without the parents’ (or students’ consent)- not naming the student but being specific about them and asking for additional support for them from the organisation?

[ValancyRedfern]

I don't know that I'm afraid.

I have actually been very open about my views among my teaching colleagues and they are surprised at first but then agree with me. I think it's that thing again of teachers generally being left leaning Guardian readers who want to be nice and kind and haven't ever been exposed to an alternative viewpoint. I think the difference on the pshe teachers group was it was online and nobody knew me personally. Some of the resources posted are horrifying. I've been trying to link some screen shots but I can't get them to work.

[ScapaFlo]

We may not be able to ban internet use but we can certainly restrict it and
supervise much more closely.

I have a friend whose teen was groomed online for sex by a much older man but she still would not restrict the teen's access to the internet as she felt sorry for her child. She herself is a six-hours-a-day social media addict (who is a single parent to said teen and also works full time) she she judges how she would feel having restricted internet access and will not restrict her child. Poor young person has a lot of mental health problems and I am absolutely sure it's from a mixture of the parents going through a hideous divorce coupled with unlimited unsupervised time on the internet which led to grooming and sex with a man in his forties. And I understand that although that has now been stopped, internet access is still more or less unlimited and unsupervised, teen is almost an adult now. Teen threatens suicide if the internet is switched off and has disappeared for a whole day at a time more than once. Poor family, it's been so very hard for them.

Sometimes I wish the internet had never been invented but then I would have lost touch with this particular friend if it hadn't. And I can't do without you lot

[WomanBornNotWorn]

Don't let them have internet in their bedroom.

Get phones that only allow phone calls and texts (do they exist?!)

[AutumnRose1]

"Get phones that only allow phone calls and texts (do they exist?!)"

Yes they do and you can get away with charging the battery a lot less often! When my contract runs out, I'm going back to that.

Scapa "Poor young person has a lot of mental health problems and I am absolutely sure it's from a mixture of the parents going through a hideous divorce coupled with unlimited unsupervised time on the internet which led to grooming and sex with a man in his forties"

when I was about 13, one of my friends sought out someone like this. They had a lovely first time in a car park!! She obviously didn't get this idea from the internet - 30 years ago - so that kind of stuff is going to happen with teen curiosity - but now we are in territory where really awful stuff can happen.

Though I'm guessing your friend's DD didn't know the guy was 40?

anyway, sex with randoms aside, I do wonder about the constant internet access for everyone. It's hard enough to manage as an adult!

[ValancyRedfern]

Check out the lgbtqi resource ppt on this site, there's a preview available. All of the resources look fantastic and will be very popular as hardly anyone wants to/has the time to plan pshe lessons.
www.tes.com/teaching-resource/sre-bundle-11468644

[ACatWhoBinds]

Re internet management, how would you manage it? With so many gadgets allowing access and at prices that are accessible to most people I would’ve thought it’d be difficult. I know that when I was a teen, wireless internet was really coming into itself and I would watch so much on my iPod. I had a really sheltered upbringing with my parents not wanting me to watch any film above my age (18s, 15s etc) and because of this and not wanting to feel left out by my peers I’d seek it all out and stay up super late watching stuff. I also found porn age 11 and watched a lot. I don’t think outright bans/super tight restrictions work - some restrictions definitely, but not banning smartphones. If the kid feels left out because all their friends have good phones they’ll definitely have resentments and grudges. My parents were also really strict with alcohol but around 15 I discovered wine yeast is only £1 in wilkos and there’s no age restrictions, that apple juice is 69p in Aldi and that it takes roughly 2 weeks to brew cider. It would’ve been safer imo if there’d been an open dialogue and discussion around the issues. My point being though, just banning something won’t necessarily stop it, there are many ways people can access things.

[ScapaFlo]

I'm sorry, I got a bit carried away there. The friend's child is a boy and was targeted by groomers similar to Rotherham and Rochdale, he was a very young looking 14. Not relevant to this thread as it's about teenage girls transitioning, it's just the internet usage that i think can be so dangerous. I mean, I'm really old and sensible and even I've been radicalised by Mumsnet. I can see how it can happen to a young person finding their 'tribe'.

And yes, of course it's difficult with the different ways of accessing online content, but unfettered access at home and no boundaries won't help forge positive online habits.

[OldCrone]

Check out the lgbtqi resource ppt on this site, there's a preview available.

"You must include the term cisgender"

"Explain the problems of gender stereotyping and why you can't always tell people's genders just by looking at them".

I wonder what they think is meant by the term 'gender stereotyping'?

[OldCrone]

On the page about transgender and non-binary identities they first define sex and gender. No problems with that. But then they go on to gender identities and transgender with no definition of what a gender identity is.

[Goosefoot]

We ban cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, even tattooing for children. I don't see why a complete ban on smartphones shouldn't be seriously considered as well.

An aqaintance of mine has worked in research in the area of internet/video game addiction, he was previously involved in other addictions research and now has a job more directly interacting with young people struggle with addiction. He thinks that within the next ten years computer related addiction is going to blow up completely, more and more research is showing it's as serious as gambling addictions (really, it is almost the same thing from what I gather) and that once young people are addicted, even if they get passed it they will be in danger for life.

But I meet very few people who will even talk about it. Any time there is an article in a newspaper, even something very woke like the Guardian, people are at crazy levels of denial about this. It's almost creepy.

Anyway, I agree it looks like they need to simply ban kids from it, just like booze or drugs or gambling. And probably many online games as well. I seriously doubt either will happen though.

[Goosefoot]

I really think the #1 thing is to simply stop pretending changing sex, even changing gender, is a thing.

I think we all knew before that very rarely someone has a sex change as a way to deal with a persistent serious psychological condition. Lots of us knew someone like this, I have a transwoman in my social circle, who I have known since I was a teen, who had a sex change in the late 70s, she must have been one of the first people in my city to get one. But no one tried to tell kids it was a future possibility to consider.

A lot of the time reconciling yourself to something you aren't happy with is actually much easier if you know there is no other real option.

[Goosefoot]

I don’t think we can realistically ban children (under 18s) from the internet. Many schools now have digital textbooks and online homeworking sites. By secondary school, most children get their homework assigned on a webpage or via email.

There isn't any real benefit to the students with these practices though. In a lot of cases quite the opposite.

[scotsheather]

Genuine q, if a girl did identify as a 'boy' would they be allowed to wear trousers? Likewise boys skirts the other way. I hope people are fighting that uniform anyway as it gives so many bad messages on so many levels.

[ValancyRedfern]

I realise this thread was meant to be for constructive ideas and I've come in all negativity. So my suggestion is - the new rse guidance for schools comes in September 2020. Schools are meant to cooperate/consult with (not sure what exact word used is) parents beforehand. The rules are statutory and include teaching gender identity as part of pshe (so children can't be withdrawn from it, that only applies to sex ed) however there is definitely a duty to liaise with parents before it comes in. Some schools are doing parent meetings but most are just doing a letter or a stand at parents evening. All of us who are parents need to inundate them with letters, queries, requests for meetings over the next two terms. There are good template letters on the Safe Schools Alliance website. Most won't even realise it's an issue. We can make them see that it is.

[Echobelly]

I think we need to model that there are many ways to be female - girls need to know they don't have to be a tits'n'ass 'hot' stereotype to have worth. They can be CEOs, they can be wrestlers, they can wear suits and ties and look dapper every day if they want, they can be firefighters or politicians or head chefs.

We need to know that porn isn't real sex and doesn't mean 'having to do' the things they may have seen in it/been told about. I suspect one part of the mistaken transition thing is young girls being terrified by porn and thinking that being a girl means doing those things (or rather, having things done to them) and declaring themselves male is a way of keeping themselves safe from that.

We need to be clear with younger girls that attraction to other girls usually means you are gay, not trans.

[AutumnRose1]

scots any school that doesn’t allow both sexes to wear trousers or skirts is doing no favours to the children and reinforcing mad stereotypes.

My parents were trying to get my school to allow trousers for girls in 1980 so any schools who don’t allow it are spectacularly behind. Is it common not to allow it? Though I can already see the issue with pervy boys in skirts....