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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lessons from history

35 replies

Norther · 19/06/2018 12:32

I want to talk about a book I read years ago that really changed the way I live my life and cintinues to give me courage when I feel daunted by doing the right thing. Little thank you first to KaiserThiefs for inspiring this thread.

It is called something like 'women of the third reich'. An american student who was fluent in german and couldnt understand how so many ordinary people had been complicit in the holocaust and was certain she would have been different decided to do a research project interviewing women who had lived in germany throughout the whole of the third reich (is that 33 to 45, can't quite remember). She interviewed jewish survivors, nazi party members, resistance, those for and against etc. It was fascinating. It was not how you would expect. There was a nazi who had refused to comply with orders to I think round up jews because she disagreed with it. The interviewer said how could you dare. She said everyone was used to me. I was always very outspoken I never changed from before the war to during. Conversely, there were people who hated the nazis but collaborated out of fear. Her conclusion was, people who stand up fof the small things are the most likely to stand and be counted when the potential repercussions get more serious I.e. if you cant stand for what is right when you are facing a few abusive words online, dont think for a second youll do it when a gun is pointed at your head. To those who say save yourself for the big battles, concede the small points. No! Because that is where the battle is won and lost.

Another point from that, your allies come from surprising quarters. Accept their kinship on the values you share without compromising those you dont. On a tangent from this but still related, find commonality with those who should be our allies but who dont call themselves feminists - there will be single issues they can relate to. Sex and gender might bore them but certain teachers in the girls swimming changing rooms wont etc.

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Freespeecher · 21/06/2018 12:47

From Wiki, regarding Max Ophuls' documentary 'The Sorrow and the Pity' about Occupied France:

'The Sorrow and the Pity (French: Le Chagrin et la Pitié) is a two-part 1969 documentary film by Marcel Ophüls about the collaboration between the Vichy government and Nazi Germany during World War II. The film uses interviews with a German officer, collaborators, and resistance fighters from Clermont-Ferrand. They comment on the nature of and reasons for collaboration. The reasons include antisemitism, anglophobia, fear of Bolsheviks and Soviet invasion, the desire for power, and simple caution'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrow_and_the_Pity

I seem to recall Ophuls saying that, in the early days, the resistance was made up of the oddballs who didn't really fit in to society (at least until later on when it became clear which way the wind was blowing and Mitterrand, amongst others, got involved).

I'd like to think that growing up in Liverpool under Militant in the 80s inoculated me against the Far Left, and the fact that the Last Night of the Proms leaves me cold suggests (if you'll forgive the odd equivalence) that I'm hardly a frothing-at-the-mouth Nationalist, meaning I could have been such an oddball. Then again, I'd still be an oddball with an aversion to getting tortured or shot or having the same thing happen to my family and friends.

I need to see 'The Sorrow and The Pity'. It was said to have shattered the myth of the French Resistance but what it has to say about the human condition isn't just limited to the French.

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badgirlswotcheragunnado · 21/06/2018 10:22

Be the one to stand up, because others will stand with you.

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Norther · 20/06/2018 18:31

Bloodmagic

I read that terry pratchett book too yonks ago. Its one of the better discworld ones. Love all the points you made.

And I am definitely that obstinate one too. I have to speak up even if I end up (sometimes literally) bloodied and bruised from the experience. From time to time I withdraw from the battle for my own sanity but I always come back for more eventually.

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Bloodmagic · 20/06/2018 14:49

"The interviewer said how could you dare. She said everyone was used to me."

Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett line from Equal Rites (read it if you haven't, it's a very feminist story about a young child who was destined to be a wizard but was born a girl):

“She was already learning that if you ignore the rules people will, half the time, quietly rewrite them so that they don't apply to you.”


I think the Asch conformity experiments are the most interesting and telling psychological experiments (even more so than the electric shock ones). Read up if you haven't but the basic result is that the vast majority of people will give an answer they KNOW is completely untrue, if everyone else is doing it. 2+2=5 type thing.
They're not fooled into thinking it's actually true, its just far more comfortable to be wrong in a group than right on their own.

If you give them a companion, one other person in the group who goes against the flow and says the right thing, they are more likely to say what they know is right rather than what is popular. They have support and at least they are not alone.

There's a small percentage of people who will NEVER give the wrong answer, no matter how big the group is or how enthusiastically they all proclaim that 2+2=5 there's always someone who is willing to say "No, it's 4. You're all wrong. I don't know how you're so wrong and I know you're probably going to resent me for pointing it out but it's 4. It always has been 4, it always will be 4."

I was raised to be pretty obstinate and vocal and I've realized that it's my job in life (and probably yours too, if you're on here) to be that first person who says 'No, that's wrong. You're all wrong' and hopefully give other people the courage to say so too. If we ever lose hope, think we can't make a difference and decide to just keep our mouths shut, that's when all hope is lost.

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athingthateveryoneneeds · 19/06/2018 21:36

I find the argument that 'we don't know what choice we'd make until we're in that situation' compelling (the electric shock experiment really surprised me, for instance) but I think it's not healthy to focus on the idea that humans are selfish, dark creatures that will almost always choose to be selfish/not help others.

While I concede that all people probably have selfish tendencies, I also believe that most people are good and want to live peaceably and be kind to others. I think that there are more good people in the world than bad people. I think that there are more brave people than cowardly people. I think there are plenty of people who stand up for what's right.

I think the most difficult choice to make is standing up for the truth and what's right when you are the first to do so. Plenty of people might quietly agree with you, but being that first lone voice is hard. Once someone starts speaking up, though, they may soon find they have others joining them.

So we need to talk. We need to take this debate to real life conversations. That's the next step.

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speakingwoman · 19/06/2018 21:17

If the thread started with the Havel piece I’d be fine.

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OlennasWimple · 19/06/2018 21:06

I really don't think anyone can say "what they would do". I have been in various tricky situations, and I have never responded how I might have expected (sometimes I've acquitted myself better, sometimes I've let myself down)

I agree with the suggestion that giving in to the small stuff can make it harder to disagree with the big stuff, though.

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KataraJean · 19/06/2018 20:50

This is an interesting and insightful thread, thank you.

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SuperLoudPoppingAction · 19/06/2018 20:29

Stockpiling irn bru, writing to my representatives, eating a lot of chips, trying as hard as I can to talk to women and 'regenerate the energy of radical feminism'
www.crosscurrents.org/madsenf00.htm

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thebewilderness · 19/06/2018 20:27

I am currently living in a country where they are putting children in concentration camps on the Southern border.

If you want to know what you would do in the bad old times you are doing it right now.

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Norther · 19/06/2018 20:15

NeverLovedElvis

Exactly that!

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NeverLovedElvis · 19/06/2018 18:23

I love the Mary Daly quote posted earlier. I think it's important to remember that whilst speaking out about the small things prepares us for speaking out about the bigger things, the reverse is also true: staying quiet on the small stuff trains us to stay quiet about the big stuff.

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BarrackerBarmer · 19/06/2018 18:14

As a child I discovered the discomfort that comes from being the only one to hold a position when your peer group disagrees, but feeling bound by integrity to stick with it - and be unpopular.

The fortitude to withstand unpopularity for a principle you believe in is one I'm trying to cultivate in my own children.

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loveyouradvice · 19/06/2018 17:57

I have always fought against injustice ... persistence, a strong sense of fair play and bloody-mindedness are qualities I am proud to have inherited from my mother... They have not always played in my favour, but looking back in my life at my biggest achievements I recognise these three qualities underpinned each.

And all are right at the forefront as I fight for a powerful future for women and girls

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Norther · 19/06/2018 16:47

I talked to some of the other mothers at pick up today. Amazingly the opportunity came up without me having to initiate it. They ALL supported me about the use of sex not gender and contacting the school. Couldnt believe it. I was expecting them to glaze over. Baby steps I know.

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Norther · 19/06/2018 16:45

Well done Prawn. People like you are my inspiration!

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 19/06/2018 16:30

I've always stood up in small ways. It stems from a conscious decision after hearing about the study in which people were told they were inflicting pain on prisoners. Electric shocks, I think it was.

Anyway, they found a disturbing number of people would inflict shocks right up until a fatal level. So I decided I was never going to be one of those people. It's one of my founding principles.

I'm softly spoken and not at all belligerent, but I speak up when I feel I must. Courage is a skill and I get braver as I go. I started talking about this gender nonsense online, took it off line, and now I go to meetings.

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Norther · 19/06/2018 16:10

Eg if we cant speak up about use of sex versus gender as protected characteristic in equality policies when the law is even on our side, we wont have a chance in hell when we are trying to turn the tide at a later date against something far bigger.

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Norther · 19/06/2018 16:07

Speakingwoman

Thanks for the comment. The analogy wasnt nazism, per se. It was more about speak up for the small things on a daily basis, dont wait for the big issues because if you do you wont have the courage/practice when that time comes. I am not saying people who disagree with me are nazis. Hope that came across to others.

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madja · 19/06/2018 15:50

TY Smile

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FermatsTheorem · 19/06/2018 15:33

That essay is available online (quite a lot of his writings are) - a Google of "Havel greengrocer" will bring it up.

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madja · 19/06/2018 15:28

Thanks for posting that Fermat
Really interesting, particularly the ideology part. Where could I find more of his writings (or can I find it online, or am I better getting a book)
I'm learning loads at the moment. It's great!

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speakingwoman · 19/06/2018 14:45

Havel had many wonderful qualities. Being succinct perhaps not being foremost.

But nonetheless it's a "Havel Na Hrad!" from me.

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FermatsTheorem · 19/06/2018 14:31

I think I agree with that, speakingwoman.

I've always thought this little snippet from Vaclav Havel was a better indication of where we risk going. (Apologies, it's a long extract.)


. . . .

{4}The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean?

{5}I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say.

{6}Obviously the greengrocer . . . does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?

{7}Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth. The greengrocer would be embarrassed and ashamed to put such an unequivocal statement of his own degradation in the shop window, and quite naturally so, for he is a human being and thus has a sense of his own dignity. To overcome this complication, his expression of loyalty must take the form of a sign which, at least on its textual surface, indicates a level of disinterested conviction. It must allow the greengrocer to say, "What's wrong with the workers of the world uniting?" Thus the sign helps the greengrocer to conceal from himself the low foundations of his obedience, at the same time concealing the low foundations of power. It hides them behind the facade of something high. And that something is ideology.

{8}Ideology is a specious way of relating to the world. It offers human beings the illusion of an identity, of dignity, and of morality while making it easier for them to part with them. As the repository of something suprapersonal and objective, it enables people to deceive their conscience and conceal their true position and their inglorious modus vivendi, both from the world and from themselves. It is a very pragmatic but, at the same time, an apparently dignified way of legitimizing what is above, below, and on either side. It is directed toward people and toward God. It is a veil behind which human beings can hide their own fallen existence, their trivialization, and their adaptation to the status quo. It is an excuse that everyone can use, from the greengrocer, who conceals his fear of losing his job behind an alleged interest in the unification of the workers of the world, to the highest functionary, whose interest in staying in power can be cloaked in phrases about service to the working class. The primary excusatory function of ideology, therefore, is to provide people, both as victims and pillars of the post-totalitarian system, with the illusion that the system is in harmony with the human order and the order of the universe. . . .

{9}The post-totalitarian system touches people at every step, but it does so with its ideological gloves on. This is why life in the system is so thoroughly permeated with hypocrisy and lies: government by bureaucracy is called popular government; the working class is enslaved in the name of the working class; the complete degradation of the individual is presented as his ultimate liberation; depriving people of information is called making it available; the use of power to manipulate is called the public control of power, and the arbitrary abuse of power is called observing the legal code; the repression of culture is called its development; the expansion of imperial influence is presented as support for the oppressed; the lack of free expression becomes the highest form of freedom; farcical elections become the highest form of democracy; banning independent thought becomes the most scientific of world views; military occupation becomes fraternal assistance. Because the regime is captive to its own lies, it must falsify everything. It falsifies the past. It falsifies the present, and it falsifies the future. It falsifies statistics. It pretends not to possess an omnipotent and unprincipled police apparatus. It pretends to respect human rights. It pretends to persecute no one. It pretends to fear nothing. It pretends to pretend nothing.

{10}Individuals need not believe all these mystifications, but they must behave as though they did, or they must at least tolerate them in silence, or get along well with those who work with them. For this reason, however, they must live within a lie. They need not accept the lie. It is enough for them to have accepted their life with it and in it. For by this very fact, individuals confirm the system, fulfill the system, make the system, are the system.

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speakingwoman · 19/06/2018 14:26

I like the Mary Daly quote but am deeply uneasy with any use of analogies to Nazi Germany in just about any context.

If this was a trans activist OP putting the reverse analogy we'd be up in arms.....

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