When/How did the transgender debate start?

[FunderAnna]

Can people tell me the date/s when plans to change the Gender Recognition Act and go for self ID started being discussed? When did moving to self ID become the declared policy of parties in the UK?

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

don't apologise

[HawkeyeInConfusion]

Thanks trousers. Sorry to derail.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

It's one and the same to me Hawkeye.

I don't label myself.

I read feminist literature from the 60s and 70s as a young woman, Marylin French, Greer, Orbach, Fay Weldon and so many more over the years, no matter what people say about the waves or the radical, the message is the same.

Don't be diverted by the message that there are many strands of conflicting feminism, that's all intended to undermine.

We know in our gut.

Trust your gut.

[ferntwist]

@xxmarks Exactly. We’re all trans basically. It’s madness.

[HawkeyeInConfusion]

I wasn't thinking about the kink trousers although that is another factor to consider. I was thinking more along the lines that it is mainly the radfem group who don't regard porn and sex work as empowering for women (please correct me if that's not the case). And one major aspect of the TRA agenda is vilifying and silencing radfems. And if they are vilified and silenced then no one will listen to their arguments against porn and sex work.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

That, along with this thread, has made me wonder whether it is the porn industry who are the money behind all this trans activism.

Porn mainstreaming is definitely convincing some men that kink should be socially acceptable, to the extent that women at work have to tolerate male cross dressers in the workplace using the women's room.

Bring your fetish to work is a key tenet of Stonewall's gender expression.

We are supposed to believe it is not a kink but a legitimate sexuality or gender identity, I can't work out which they think it is as they deny any sexual aspect to it.

It's just about the clothes? In which case go in the men's, I am happy in the women's with my trousers on so you can use the men's with your dress on, no?

[HawkeyeInConfusion]

I'm reading Kat Barnyard's 'The Equality Illusion'. In it she talks about all the money in porn. That, along with this thread, has made me wonder whether it is the porn industry who are the money behind all this trans activism.

I'm new to this feminism thing, so apologies if that idea is either blatantly obvious or completely ridiculous.

[xxmarksthespot]

“In the broadest sense, transgender encompasses anyone whose identity or behaviour falls outside of stereotypical gender norms. That includes people who do not self-identify as transgender, but who are perceived as such by others.”

Isn't that everyone then ?

[RosenbergW]

In any case reanimatedSGB the point I was making wasn't about porn itself, if was about the hypocrisy of trans identified non-women like Fae and Kaveney who argue vociferously against censorship of extreme porn but equally vociferously for censorship of feminist women. You dont have to be the smartest kid in the room to see the obvious in that contradiction.

[RosenbergW]

I wonder how many of those would need to be uploaded to the internet for reanimatedSGB to admit there was a problem.

Porn is not entertainment or fantasy to the women and children abused to make it and abused using it.

[OrchidInTheSun]

Nearly 19,000 child rapes were recorded in India in 2016

[OrchidInTheSun]

Yes have a look @ReanimatedSGB. I'm at work and can't log onto porn sites

[Ereshkigal]

That screengrab upthread about 'the victim's name' - are you sure that isn't either a common name, or a name shared with a popular adult performer?

Do you have any evidence that that's the case?

[Yarnswift]

Kids ARE getting good sex ed where I live. It’s held up as the best practice model. It’s open, it’s frank, they talk about all this stuff.

It’s still not enough. The change in what’s on offer and the availability of it is the issue. When I was a teen poem wasn’t accessible. We had no phones, any poem was what these days would count as very softcore seen in a mag or a VHS tape.
Now at a click kids can be exposed to really extreme stuff and the extreme is the norm. Acts that would be likely to cause serious physical injury in women unless done under close supervision (and even porn actresses get injured at a fair rate, these women are using numbing gels and still experiencing prolapses etc.) if you go into any of the landing sites for the main porn providers you see that most of the categories are what was considered non mainstream even ten years ago.

No young girls first experience of sex should be coercive or likely to injure her. Choking in particular is worrying - not only is it something that should be done only in consenting circumstances by people old enough to understand consent, it takes very little pressure in just the right place to cause catastrophic brain injury or death.

When you’ve got visual imagery on tap it’s overwhelming. It’s so much more powerful to have a visual stimulus/orgasm reinforcement loop than it is to be talked at in class.

I’m afraid I can’t agree with you SGB - I live in one of the places that’s the best on earth for sex education and liberal attitudes to sex and my friends kids are still having these issues. They do NOT see porn as fantasy - because it’s saturated with violence to the point that ALL they see is violence.

[ReanimatedSGB]

Good sex education should be teaching kids about porn - that it is entertainment/fantasy, not an instruction manual. But kids are not getting good sex ed.

[AngryAttackKittens]

A teacher explaining boundaries in class just doesn't have the same dopamine activating, classical conditioning to associate stimulus A with orgasm impact on developing minds that porn does.

[Yarnswift]

I live in Sweden - here we have fantastic sex education that starts in an age appropriate way very young. They learn about boundaries and respect from starting kindergarten at 18m ish. The society generally is very open about sex and sexuality. It’s generally held up as the model of all the ‘should do’ things about how to create respect in sexual relationships.

We still have a problem with young teens viewing extreme porn on smartphones. A big problem. These kids HAVE the background in the good sex education. It’s discussed freely in a way it isn’t in many other countries and online porn is STILL a big problem.
I just can’t accept the argument that it’s all fine, because I’m seeing friends have their eight year olds come home freaked out after older kids have shown them this, or 12 year old kids pressured into naked selfies that are shared or 15-17 year olds having their first sexual experiences with boys who expect to choke them and do anal. It’s awful for these kids - and this is a country that’s done all the right things regarding good sex education and societal attitudes.

[ferntwist]

Stonewall has identified trans as its new emerging market, now that so many older LGB battles have been won.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

Why are they so nasty to lesbian women with a butch presentation then?
Or is a flannel shirt and blundstones no good? Does it have to be a leather cap and all the s/m stuff?

[ferntwist]

This is Stonewall’s official transgender umbrella (the cynical will say they are trying to catch the biggest possible client base here):

• Gender benders • Gender blenders • Drag queens • Drag kings • Butch women • Effeminate men • Cross-dressers • Transvestites

“Anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender.
“In the broadest sense, transgender encompasses anyone whose identity or behaviour falls outside of stereotypical gender norms. That includes people who do not self-identify as transgender, but who are perceived as such by others.”

[RosenbergW]

ReanimateSGB

Your arguments are like a relic from the 80s! Have you been asleep for forty years? Sex ed is compulsory in schools. There are a million friendly but frank books aimed at young people explaining sex and relationships and about male and female bodies (transphobes!). The problem isn't that kids don't have access to info about sex, it's that they are exposed to pornography via the internet which goes too far too soon and very often does not depict safe or consensual sex.

ancient but persistent myths about sexuality - that 'real' relationships are monogamous and heterosexual; that women don't like sex but ration it out to men in order to 'keep' a man, that there is such a thing as having 'too many' sexual partners; that it's a woman's own fault if a man attacks her...

These aren't feminist arguments so I don't know what the relevance of them is? I'm a radical feminist and I believe none of the above. I do believe however that 'feminists against censorship' were a crock of shite, and the couple of women I have known who claimed to be supporters of FAC were some of the most naive, sheltered, hilariously straight and privileged people I have ever come across, and had less knowledge between them about feminism or sex in the 21st century than a monkey does about Shakespeare.

I see why you chose the name 'reanimated' now. I'm really done with these zombie arguments so excuse me if I bow out of discussing this further with you.

[thebewilderness]

ReanimatedSGB

Google "counting dead women" and then eff right off.

[ReanimatedSGB]

That screengrab upthread about 'the victim's name' - are you sure that isn't either a common name, or a name shared with a popular adult performer?

[ReanimatedSGB]

What is doing a lot of harm to young people's sexuality is inadequate SRE education in schools, along with the ancient but persistent myths about sexuality - that 'real' relationships are monogamous and heterosexual; that women don't like sex but ration it out to men in order to 'keep' a man, that there is such a thing as having 'too many' sexual partners; that it's a woman's own fault if a man attacks her...

Articles screaming about the fact that 'children are seeing loads of porn online' are about as valid as those screaming that 'eleven year old girls are being given contraceptive implants BECAUSE INTERNET PORN AND NO RESPECT FOR PARENTS. This crap is about as ethically/factually valid as the sort of shit that forced birthers come out with about how allowing abortion on request will lead to millions of women having terminations at 30 weeks because women just can't be trusted.

If young people are 'getting their sex education from porn' then the problem is that no one is providing them with any other form of sex education. Because there are still too many groups insisting that sex is disgusting and children should not be told anything about it, or that sex education should consist solely of lectures about pregnancy and disease.
Have a look at the reactions to this

[Ereshkigal]

That's horrifying.