#120db

[No1blueengine]

I stumbled upon a thing on twitter, a video for #120db which appears to be a anti rape women movement in Europe. Essentially standing up for women who feel they have been thrown under the bus by Western Europe's migrant policy. I am having difficulty evaluating it frankly and wondered if anyone had any experience of it.

I am cautious because of what seems to be a overt anti-migrant position. It is not helped by a google search which brought up as the top response a piece on the movement by Brietbart. Also the Daughters of Europa thing rings in my ears as a call to nationalism but maybe it plays differently in mainland Europe than here on the fringes.

Fundamentally I don't want to see persons fleeing war etc and seeking safety labelled as potential rapists, but it has always seemed to me that the integration of migrant populations into European communities has been badly handled and with little thought to the consequences from what i can see.

As a child my community had a large intake of Lebanese refugees fleeing the civil war and i went to school with these children. There were exceptions of course but I saw the girls slowly disappear from school almost totally by age 14 to go back to Lebanon or elsewhere and get married and i had to deal with the boys whose level of misogyny was off the scale - even for Australia! So it doesn't take much for me to imagine what #120db are describing.

Obviously it is a nuanced subject. All refugees & migrants are not evil rapists in waiting. However, would it be fair to say that some persons, newly come to Europe, have come with a disconcertingly worrying attitude to women which is incompatible with assimilation and puts women at risk and that governments, for fear of giving legitimacy to the more far right/isolationist elements are ignoring the problem?

I feel like i am risking the electronic wroth of the internet for raising these questions but it must be worth a conversation surely?

[CharlieParley]

Should add that the 33% to 38% is not actually non-locals but non-German perpetrators, that is longterm residents like the bloke from Newcastle, the dude from Chicago, the chap from Marseille are included in this number just as much as any recent arrivals like the refugees.

And it is entirely thinkable that the statistics are further skewed by the possibility that stranger assaults and rapes are more likely to be reported than the far more common sexual attacks by people known to the victim which tend to be underreported. (I've read this somewhere but cannot remember the source so I'm adding this here merely as a possibility, not a certainty.)

[CharlieParley]

Typical case of there's lies, damn lies and statistics.

So that 91%:

It represented the increase in Bavaria alone, not across Germany, for the first six months of 2017. The 91% figure had to be corrected - rather sheepishly officials admitted that it included all kinds of sexual harrassment, not just rape as initially reported. And what they didn't tell anyone at the time was that the German law on what constituted a crime of a sexual nature was changed to include far more offences and changed the definition of other offences*.

That's why all of the Bundesländer had agreed not to publish statistics on this for any ongoing year. North Rhine Westphalia was the only other state not to stick to that rule and they reported fewer rapes and assaults for the same six month period than in just one month ten years earlier.

Both Bundesländer had a political motivation for publishing their numbers. Bavaria wanted to stir up anti-immigrant rhetoric in the run up to the election, while NR WP wanted to prove that things were much improved after the attacks in Cologne (which were unsurprisingly misreported in the press btw).

For Germany as a whole, the numbers for 2016 showed that the percentage of alleged non-local assailants rose from 33% to 38% and that women as a whole were attacked in lower numbers than 20 years ago.

So if the increase in assaults and rapes committed by immigrants is relatively small and fewer women become victims, where does the alarm come from?

It comes from the public nature of some of the assaults committed by immigrants - that is they attack in groups and/or in public or relatively public places. They don't hide it as much as German men do, possibly because they come from cultures where women do not seek or get justice and/or from war torn countries where upholding law and order is a function the state can no longer perform.

They are definitely overrepresented among the perpetrators (I think they commit sexual crime at twice the rate of German men but as they make up only a small percentage of men in the country, the stories are definitely exaggerating the danger).

*Originally, it was rape only if the rapists had first been violent towards the victim, or threatened the victim with violence or where the victim was completely defenceless. The victim also had to fight back to stand a chance in court.

[WrongOnTheInternet]

There is an issue Quentin or have you forgotten Rotherham and Telford?

Yes all men can rape, and yes British society is quite misogynistic already. My experience incidentally, backed up by stats, is that Germany is less violent than the UK and so women there might not be quite as used to being given rape alarms as we are in the UK. None of that changes the point that we are importing more men from even more misogynistic cultures than our own. It has been suggested before now that one of the reasons these men want to come to Europe at all is because they believe they'll have more sexual freedom over here, because white women have that.

[TrumpTrump]

Personally, I think that the media should be forced to report on all proven sex crimes. All sexual assaults are under-reported, but for different reasons.

[R0wantrees]

There are also very serious dangers for women and girls who are refugees in Europe, especially in some camps.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/underwear-women-bras-not-bombs-refugees-knickers-donate-a7228201.html

www.leftlion.co.uk/read/2017/june/bras-not-bombs/

[TheHellespont]

Not only is the underlying discourse and associated media racist and intolerant, but the founder of the 120db movement is an active member of the evidently racist, white separatist/supremacist, ethno-nationalist Generation Identity (Génération Identitaire), which has documented far-right and neo-Nazi opinions and associations. (www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/generation-identity-far-right-group-training-camps-europe-uk-recruits-military-white-nationalist-a8046641.html).

They are clearly and cynically exploiting an issue of immense suffering and enduring trauma for their own racist, white supremacist political ends, which I find quite viscerally nauseating, and demonstrative of a deeply sinister capacity for dishonesty and manipulation. Sexual violence is a horrific thing to experience or be in fear of and those who are victims of it or at risk from it need genuine and serious policy and action to stamp it out, for all victims and by all perpetrators. Not pathetic partisan attempts to capitalise on it for sinister and divisive political ends.

[SusanBunch]

However it is a fact that almost all the incidents are committed by what police refer to as "non-local" men. 120DB wants to attract attention to this because the incidents are not mentioned in the press or the regular media and women are increasingly wanting to know why.

Almost all incidents of what? Sexual assault? Sorry, there is no way that I buy that. If it's not mentioned anywhere, how do you know it is happening? It's like saying that Asian men commit almost all incidents of sexual violence in the UK. It's total rubbish. Yes, there have been high profile incidents that were horrific like the Cologne attacks, like the gang abuse scandals in the UK. But to say that almost all rapes and assaults are carried out by immigrants or minority groups is incredibly false.

It does strike me, when we have white defendants, nobody suggests that it's part of a wider patter or evidence that white men are bad. But when it's Asian people, it suddenly becomes a talking point- evidence of an endemic problem.

One thing all the attackers had in common was that they were all male.

[SusanBunch]

Hmmm...
I just saw one of their videos on youtube which said that the #metoo movement was 'exaggerating' because catcalling isn't that bad and the real bad stuff is being perpetrated by immigrants.

My view- statistically women are at highest risk from the men they know- their partners, husbands, boyfriends and other males they interact with. Random immigrants are not likely to kill you when you are out and about, but we know that over 100 women are killed by current and former partners. I also think that whereas one-off abusive behaviour from men on the street is undoubtedly distressing, a constant pattern of abuse and harassment from men that you interact with on a regular basis can be even more distressing.

It's interesting that the women in the video (who both describe themselves as right-wing) say that #metoo is exaggeration and women being silly. I wonder if that is because it is targeting high-profile, white men who have so far been 'untouchable'. I have worked with married men with children and very high profile jobs, who have been creepy, misogynistic twats but have got away with it due to social standing.

Immigrants are at the bottom of the food chain already. People already hate them. Therefore, by pretending that they are the real problem, this movement is surely perpetuating a myth that white middle-class men don't rape and abuse women? Only nasty, dirty foreigners do.

I am not sure this helps women at all. Because we have seen what happens when they are attacked by white 'heroes' like Ched Evans and Paddy Jackson. They are called lying sluts and are hounded and ripped to shreds. Because according to this narrative, white men are not rapists.

It's anecdotal, but I know someone who was involved in the investigation of the alleged immigrant assaults on women in Sweden. He told me that the way the media reported it represented a very very different version to the truth. That of course does not mean that no immigrants ever attack women, of course not. But to paint the picture that women are most at risk of immigrants I think is a false one.

Very interested in what others think on this...

[misfitt]

With any of these subjects you have to look Impartially. Joachim Herrmann, minister, said the increase between one year and the previous was 91%. This matches the BKA so would seem to be accurate.

If there is a discussion to be had why is it receiving no media attention which I think is the biggest concern and opens the door to concerns about censorship by media.

The same problem occurred a year or so ago which led to Nicole Taylor writing Three Girls after that subject also received little media coverage yet later arrests and imprisonment proved there was an issue.

Suppressing statistics is one of the worst things the media can do because it pushes the debate underground leading to the polarisation of political parties with both pushed to the extreme ends of the spectrum where both currently have their own issues.

Rather than focus on we don't want to upset anyone the focus should be on the crime and from this hopefully the perpetrator (s) will be found although after listening to a member of the service the crimes in London are occurring with such regularity and in many cases with no connection between victim and perpetrator in a lot of cases the chances of apprehension are much slimmer.

[sportinguista]

I go along with the fact that a demographic skew is likely to produce problems coupled with the fact that many of these young men are unlikely to be able to find employment, have much money and maybe even training. Culturally they are no doubt different but I imagine barring special educational needs they are able to understand different concepts such as the treatment of others even if they are not able to delve deeper into cultural history etc, that they choose not to I suppose is a criminal matter and they should on that basis be treated exactly the same as any other person who commits a crime.

The rights of women, from all cultural backgrounds should be respected and whatever situation they are in life. Men whatever their motivation which can cover a lot of very topical points at the moment do not have a right to harm the rights of women.

[CritEqual]

What pisses me off is how the potential female immigrants are completely rendered invisible. I'm broadly in favour of immigration, and certainly when it comes to refugees, but how the current system actually privileges male migration. Maybe we should encourage equal numbers of men and women?

Of course male violence is going to go up across the board of we are altering the very demographics of the country in favour of males, and way way more migrants are male.

[QuentinSummers]

I've searched up the # now and I'm even less convinced. Lots of pictures and videos of pretty white women, lots of crimes reported as being done by "immigrants" ie non-white people. It isn't even immigrants from a particular area.

One of the featured cases was the nanny killed in the Westminster bridge attack - which was a terror attack, not a sex crime.

There is a lot of coopting of #metoo going on as well.

It seems very dog whistle to me, and of course white men love it because they can point to "those immigrant men, and their culture" as the cause of rising sexual assault rates.

[Ebba84]

Quentin I am not sure what your comment about Donald Trump has got to do with the original comment, unless of course it is a tactic to deflect from the topic at hand or to make me out to be a racist.

Nobody is denying that rape/sexual assault is a problem, the issue is that rape by a certain demographic in Germany is being swept under the carpet and deliberately not reported on. That is what women are questioning and demanding answers to. That is what the 120DB movement is about.

They want to know why when women are viciously attacked perpetrators aren't arrested and let go for the specific reason that they are migrants. They want to know why when they go swimming and are corralled by groups of men so they can be groped it is brushed off as "you have to forgive them they don't understand our culture". They want to know why the media is full of #metoo stories about celebrities in other countries but nobody in their own country reports on the serious increase of sexual assaults, murders, beatings and rapes.

[QuentinSummers]

What they are asking is why rape by migrants isn't reported on, why it is almost deliberately swept under the carpet. They want to know why nobody in the press or in politics is questioning the fact that women are walking round with rape alarms or tear gas sprays. They are asking why the police are being told to omit assaults by certain demographics from crime figures. They are asking why rapists that have been clearly identified, that have in some cases even admitted what they did are being allowed to walk away scot free.
With the exception of the reporting demographics, one could (and many feminists do) make the same argument for rapists as a whole.
I was given a rape alarm to carry in freshers week at uni. That was because women arming themselves has always been an easier answer than getting men not to rape.
Rape/sexual assault is a huge problem. I disagree that immigration makes it worse.

ebba you sound like Donald Trump going on about how parts of the UK aren't safe because of "Muslims".

[stoneagefertilitydoll]

I'm heavily pro immigration - I've lived outside of my home country most of my adult life, so I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't. I think freedom of movement enriches a country. Having said that, I think that the issues are demographics. If you bring large numbers of young males to an area and house them together, have them work together, eat together, spend every waking moment together, then it's going to cause trouble (whether they are immigrants or not) - families, coming to settle together are always going to be easier to integrate, because the children are a bridge.

[Ebba84]

@QuentinSummers I think you may've completely missed the point that is being made by the 120DB movement. They are not blaming migrants for rape or saying all migrants are rapists.

What they are asking is why rape by migrants isn't reported on, why it is almost deliberately swept under the carpet. They want to know why nobody in the press or in politics is questioning the fact that women are walking round with rape alarms or tear gas sprays. They are asking why the police are being told to omit assaults by certain demographics from crime figures. They are asking why rapists that have been clearly identified, that have in some cases even admitted what they did are being allowed to walk away scot free.

This isn't about educating boys to not rape women, this isn't about immigration. This is about women's voices not being heard and women's rights being trampled on. Before you start commenting on something you don't really know much about or have only read about in online forums I would advise you to actually go to Germany, and walk round some of the areas women are scared to go in.

[QuentinSummers]

Also the whole point of the OP was to discuss whether or not it was acceptable to discuss migration in the context of rape. So my opinion is not whataboutery.
Yours is obviously different. Each to their own but no need to be a trombone about it.

[QuentinSummers]

Hardly. I'm not deflecting from sex crimes.
Why is it do you think that people are much happier to talk about reducing sex crimes by reducing immigration than by talking about other things (such as sentencing properly, better sex education especially for boys, not proven verdict for rape)?

[BlindYeo]

I agree with you entirely by the way OP. It is a glaring example of women being thrown under the bus.

www.ft.com/content/b5a8867e-28ea-11e7-bc4b-5528796fe35c

Rape and sexual assault up 13% in Germany last year.

[BlindYeo]

Whataboutery at its finest there Quentin

[QuentinSummers]

I think as not much is done about the sex crime rate full stop blaming immigrants is a bit rich

[BlindYeo]

This is another perfect example of where people need to stop drinking the Guardian Kool Aid version of things.

Calling people racists or far right for being upset about what has been happening in their countries is exactly the same as TRAs shouting feminists down as transphobes.

Nobody is saying European men don't rape. But adding thousands of mostly young men from more misogynist cultures into your society, who in addition are not educated to a level that allows them to easily integrate into a high-skill economy, was bound to create additional problems. And women really don't need their countries to follow policies which increase the sex crime rate, do they?

[QuentinSummers]

I get the impression that the mindset of right wing men disliking immigrants isn't out of a benevolent desire for women's autonomy, but that they feel a sense that their 'property' is being encroached upon. The whole thing feels very dogwhistly for the far right.
This is what I think. So many people are totally happy to brush the UKs home grown rape culture under the carpet, yet make a huge fuss when immigrants rape.
We need to get our own house in order first. The biggest risk to women is men they know, not the immigrant down the street or the bogeyman in the bushes.

[user1491142393]

On sale now in Germany are anti rape pants its that bad, they sold out quickly.

[user1491142393]

The EU has a policy of not reporting migrants in a bad way. This is why 000's of sexual assaults against women are covered up.
A woman in England was recently raped by a somalian, she tried to explain she was still a virgin but it made no difference. His answer was she could not be a virgin as she was white.
Imagine how the msm would of been all over it if a white man had said that to a black woman. Or the woman who took a refugee in only for him to rape her 12yr old daughter, etc etc etc.
Its the likes of the white hating BBC NEWS etc that are keeping you in the dark about whats really going on.