IVF, surrogacy, sperm donation, feminism

[loopdeloo]

Firstly, I should say that I have just had a second round of unsuccessful IVF and it looks like this is not going to work out for me and DH, so I am having a lot of emotional and confusing thoughts and I really hope people can bear that in mind if I say something offensive on what is a hugely sensitive topic and please forgive me if I get this wrong.

Because of our situation, we are now being talked to about egg donation (i.e. attempting IVF with another woman's eggs and my DH's sperm). I don't want to do this because it doesn't feel right for me personally for a number of reasons, one of which is it just feels too "Handmaid's" and that I would be a vessel to provide my DH with his own genetic offspring. He completely gets this, and the other reasons that resonate for both of us, and we are looking at adoption instead.

I have two sets of lesbian friends who have children through sperm donation from someone they knew. In one family, the father is involved, in the other he is not, although he is not being kept "anonymous". This has never seemed to be much of a problem to me. I also have one set of gay male friends who have adopted 2 children in the UK and they are wonderful parents and although it has been hard, their experience has really helped DH and I look at adoption positively.

And yet now I have a couple of male gay friends who have decided to go to the US to have a surrogate mother - who will be anonymous to the child - and it is making me feel deeply uncomfortable. The total cost is going to be near on $100k and they are spending time browsing through brochures of women's profiles. As I type, I'm not sure why the cost is relevant and yet it seems to be so I'm going to leave it in the post. This seems even more 'handmaid's' and I can't quite get my head round it.

Is this just a purely irrational and emotional reaction due to my personal struggle with infertility, or is there a feminist issue here? I am aware that I'm all over the shop emotionally at the moment and that there is the potential for great hypocrisy here and I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts and not looking for agreement or sympathy.

[loopdeloo]

Keepingupwiththejonesys - of course. If my sisters could have given me their eggs, they would have done, but they are both too old for that to be an option. If one of us needed a kidney or bone marrow then we would all be straight into the hospital getting ourselves tested for compatibility. I think it's different from the question of what is troubling me here, with men browsing brochures of women's profiles to act as their surrogates. Thinking about it now, I guess in the US it is still going to be poor women doing this, or young women trying to pay college fees for example.

[Mrsfw]

Hi-
It is a real challenge initially when faced with the option of using donor eggs. I really recommend getting in touch with the donor conception network and doing their 'planning for parenthood' weekend. We did this and met a lot of couples in the same situation as us, it involves lots of discussion and people talking around the best option for them. It is incredible helpful.

If it is not right for you and doesn't sit well for you, that is OK but I think there are other ways to think about it and we in the donor community do.

It is often only suggested after a really long IVF journey or with a known diagnostic factor(I am now on my 8th cycle with no success so far) it was heartbreaking to find out my eggs couldn't be used but am totally comfortable with using DE now and feel positive & optimistic about it.

It is very frustrating and sad how surrogacy and donor gamete donation are portrayed in the press and as I'm sure you realise is not the reality for most of the general public in this situation. (I also roll my eyes at the KK storyline not that I believe for a second the actual detail because they are tabloid headlines and a real missed opportunity to portray surrogacy for the amazing gift that it is!)

You are right, laws with certain practices need to be reviewed to ensure the protection of the mother, genetic donor and any children born but please don't think that any of us going into the DE or surrogacy process don't consider these with serious thought.

It is extremely ignorant (and I expect you are doing it just for effect) @newtlover to call us smacking of entitlement. That actually made me laugh! What a horrible comment. So entitled! Yes we have so far spent a lot of money on treatment, we sold our house to do this.

Loopdeloo-I don't feel the need to tell you the minutae of our extensive rounds of treatment or why my eggs can't be used as you have been through IVF so I hope feel the weight, importance and consideration in your decision. However, please know that all of us going in to this all have very different situations with different journeys. Do PM if you need to chat further.

I am having an ID release donation and we will be telling our child from the outset. Lots of people don't do this and that is OK for them. It will be my child, whether I carry them or not. My donor does not think of them as her children, she is their donor.

We will not be adopting because I don't have the skills to take on a child or young set of children with significant emotional and other needs. We also don't qualify in our borough because we are the wrong racial profile and we move house too much (job related).

Good luck on your journey

[hipsterfun]

I was under the assumption that these were additional eggs from other women doing IVF, so no woman is being coerced or exploited.

Sometimes women are offered reduced price IVF if they egg share; I’m not entirely comfortable with that.

[hipsterfun]

We will not be adopting because I don't have the skills to take on a child or young set of children with significant emotional and other needs.

Do you mind my asking what will happen if a child born with donor eggs ever has significant needs?

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I suppose what's troubling me the most is my instinctive reaction to two men sitting there browsing through brochures of women to be their surrogates, when it didn't bother me at all when my lesbian friends were thinking of doing the same for sperm donors (although in the end they found someone they knew who was willing to donate)

Because the 2 situations are not comparable. Donating sperm does not remotely compare to carrying a pregnancy to term.

So far as finding a donor who was willing to donate, in the UK that is not a particularly sensible choice for any of the parties involved.

[Mrsfw]

No problems at all @hipsterfun We will of course deal with that as and when, embrace it fully and support and do as best we can.

I made the previous statement to highlight that this was suggested to us at a series of adoption workshops. Some people are not aware of the needs that some adopted children present, the amount of foster homes that they have been to etc. and assume these are new babies just given away. I fully admire anyone who adopts, and have worked with some of these parents, but it isn't an active choice for me.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Do you mind my asking what will happen if a child born with donor eggs ever has significant needs?

Or a child born to a surrogate? Well we know what happened in one case - rejected by the Australian "parents" and left in poverty with a Thai single mother.


[Leilaniii]

They are going to the US to do this and I don't know the situation there, and whether it is poor women who will do this for them in return for cash or what.

Several of my friends from college in the US sold their eggs. And one later acted as a surrogate. And let me tell you it is generally NOT poor women who do this. The reason being potential recipient parents want eggs from a good pedigree: Ivy League University, athletic, good background, healthy... these women go through a lot of tests before they are able to donate/act as a surrogate. It's a buyer's market. No-one wants a poor, uneducated and unhealthy woman to be the biological or epigenetic mother of their child.

[grannytomine]

You have to look at it from the child's point of view as well,, it is OK saying sperm donation is easier but I used to work with someone who was the result of sperm donation. She had really serious psychological problems with it. It wasn't easy for her.

[Leilaniii]

... however, I do share your discomfort to a degree. When one of my friends registered to donate her eggs, we went onto the website to view her profile and quite a few of the girls had bikini shots as their profile pics. It just seemed highly inappropriate.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

That "assurance" by Lelaniii does nothing to make me feel less uncomfortable about the ethics of surrogacy.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I was referring to Lelaniii's first post. It all just feels like buying a baby. I'm afraid my instinctive reaction is that buying a baby and buying sex are just not acceptable.

[GuardianLions]

I personally couldn't be a surrogate, because I don't think I could give up the child. What if the surrogate goes through pregnancy, birth, etc - then realises that they cannot give up the child? What a terrible dilemma to put a woman in, aside from the risks to her health.

I find it sickening the thought of those brochures op - effectively looking through a catalogue of women to buy a baby.

[loopdeloo]

Lelaniii, thank you for that insight. Like Lass, it makes me feel even worse about it. I don't want to be a self-absorbed shit but I don't think I can be there for my friend on this, even if I wasn't going through all the personal trouble that I am. The idea of him and his boyfriend browsing through brochures of bikini shots of female colleague students, deciding who is going to give them their most perfect $$$$$$ baby just makes me feel sick.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I find it sickening the thought of those brochures op - effectively looking through a catalogue of women to buy a baby

I agree.

[Leilaniii]

For those of you who think using another woman's eggs is "buying a baby", do you also believe that having a termination is "killing a baby"?

Genuine question, BTW.

[Leilaniii]

I get you loopdeloo, but how else are they going to be parents otherwise?

[SylviaPoe]

They can’t be parents. That’s the point.

[GuardianLions]

Leilaniii
What you are saying makes it all sound like the surrogacy business is uncomfortably close to eugenics... Chilling.

[Jinglebellhell17]

If it's in the us there are very stringent guidelines on who can be a surrogate. It's mostly military wives. They aren't poor but not well off. I've known a few who have done it. One did it simply because she loved being pregnant but really her family was complete. One was a doula who did it for altruistic reasons. One did it partly for a college fund for her kids partly for altruistic reasons. They really aren't uneducated exploited women. I think the case in places like India is entirely different.

[GuardianLions]

I've known a few who have done it.
That blows my mind... What if the people they hand their baby over to are abusive a holes or something?

[Leilaniii]

GuardianLions, it is close to eugenics, however isn't it anyway, when we choose a mate? We are (generally) attracted to good-looking, healthy, clever people to mate with.

[Jinglebellhell17]

It's not her baby though. The surrogate isn't biologically related to the baby. All I know have formed close bonds with the family and are kept updated. The surrogate chooses whom she carries for. They meet and mutually agree to be matched. The parents meet the surrogates husband/kids etc.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I get you loopdeloo, but how else are they going to be parents otherwise?

I don't get your point. They can't. There are lots of things people can't do / don't get.

[loopdeloo]

For those of you who think using another woman's eggs is "buying a baby", do you also believe that having a termination is "killing a baby"?

I think a woman using another woman's eggs is fine, even though it's not for me. I've personally realised that I'm finding the idea of men buying women's eggs and renting a woman's body for 9 months is an entirely different scenario, and one that has nothing to do with abortion.