Womens' clothes no.2

[Ava6]

I'm starting a new thread on this because I can't find the old one.

Becoming a radfem has really dampened my previously unabashed love of fashion. I've never done high heels or anything too restrictive or skimpy; have always detested bras and synthetic materials (I can;t handle due to sensitive Aspie skin), but I now I look at all female clothing critically.

My mother ruined her and my lives for the past few years in part due to wearing stilettos when very young. She quit after a couple of years and they were only moderate height in her day, but it still did enough damage to need bunion removal surgery and give her terrible arthritis in middle age. She's been living in excruciating chronic pain with limited mobility for years now. The kicker is that I'm disabled and she's my sole carer. Not only is she not able to care for me in full, but for many years the pain worsened her mental health and she took it out on me and the stress probably contributed to my current disability. So I can't even look at stilettos calmly (especially the ugly modern monstrosities).

Swimwear positively drives me nuts. I shopped at a granny store to buy my swimsuits so I could find something with decent coverage. Even that's relative because the boylegs ride up in the back. And then there're the bra cups...Who the hell needs them in a swimsuit?? They're constrictive, burn into my skin and a nightmare to take on and off. A woman can't even go in the water without having to make her boobies look lovely for the male gaze.

The constant adjustment required when wearing female attire is bonkers. I suffer from debilitating chronic fatigue so every movement tires me and takes away from the very limited energy reserve I have per day. I've made a plan to shop in mens' deparments whenever I need anything comfy. I already buy mens' socks and some shoes.

[MorrisZapp]

I don't like the line that skimpy clothes are somehow the flipside of restrictive, religious dressing. They aren't.

Most women dress for their age, taste, and environment. I used to 'doll up' in my youth, I still enjoy clothes but jeans and a nice blouse does the trick these days.

There isn't much I can't find in the shops. John Lewis is awash with women's shirts, sweaters and trousers. Many of their dresses are comfortable to wear.

I must admit I like having the options of differing styles of dress, unlike men who are stuck with pretty much the same limited garment types.

[LittleWingSoul]

I like the lines of a sports swimming cossie and the fact that it is functional but having breastfed 2 children feel uncomfortable with my boobs jangling around so wear a triangle bikini underneath said sports cossie. Each to their own on that one... Having supported boobs and non-chafing nips when swimming is higher on my list of priorities than attracting the male gaze on the rare occasion I go to a swimming pool.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I don't like the line that skimpy clothes are somehow the flipside of restrictive, religious dressing. They aren't

Me neither- nor that unless you buy your clothes from somewhere like the Army and Navy stores all women's clothing is just for attracting the male gaze.

[GuardianLions]

op I agree with you. I can't be bothered to wear a bra most days and it's interesting how the hemisphere pad things are standard and you have to look for swimwear and bras without them.

I think it is possible to find more practical/comfortable clothes for women, but you have to look longer and harder for them than a man would.... And the darts, splits, etc in the tailoring of women's clothes are definitely put in there to display our figures - which to me suggests it's in part about appealing to the male gaze.

As for the high heel bunion thing. My mum's got them from crappy high heels in her teens and twenties - so i've avoided heels and definitely have no bunions even though our feet are very similar/same genes.

[EBearhug]

I've spent most of my life in sensible shoes or no shoes, but I have inherited my mother's and aunt''s bunions.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

It seems more the case that uncomfortable shoes might exacerbate a number of existing, potentially quite serious conditions, rather than cause bunions.

Children can get bunions.

Bunion - Causes - NHSUK
www.nhs.uk/conditions/bunion/causes/

Bunion - NHSUK
www.nhs.uk/conditions/bunion/#what-causes-bunions

[noeffingidea]

the hemisphere pad things are standard and you have to look for swimwear and bras without them.
You don't have to look very far. Sportshops sell swimsuits without pads and supermarkets (eg Sainsburys) sell bras without them. Both my daughter and I wear lycra comfort bras that have no wires. Some of them have removable pads so I just remove them.
There's masses of choice nowadays, something for everyone. I don't understand why people find it difficult. Though the fashion trends for actual clothes are bad at the moment (all the frilly ruffly shit).

[EBearhug]

You don't have to look very far.
Depends on your size, IME. I currently can't find Speedo in my size, and it seems quite difficult to find cossie in large sizes that don't assume you are also massive of bust and need much support. I am quite overweight, but it's mostly not on my bust, and single layer lycra swimming costume is fine.


(I did notice in the pool last night that, I am in the market for a new, smaller costume, so I might be able to fit into Speedo sizes again. Just can't face the drive into town for shopping for it, which is also why my trousers are all very loose on the waist.)

[TheSmallClangerWhistlesAgain]

There is definitely far less choice in bras without padding or moulded cups. Some of the brands that sell to bigger-busted women have nice ones - Freya comes to mind - but their smaller sizes are not stocked in that many places.

I don't want wedges of sweaty foam padding down my top. I sweat enough as it is and lightweight bras definitely help. Bras have definitely become more rigid and confining since I've started wearing them. I found out that John Lewis have started selling Calvin Klein cotton sports bras again, which I used to live in as they were comfy and looked quite nice. I used to find unpadded plunge and balcony bras the most comfortable and the best for my shape, but they don't exist any more.

The lingerie industry really is the empress's new clothes. It's hard even debating about lingerie because people get so defensive about it, and it's all meant to be about sexy choosy-choices now.

DH sometimes buys Calvins or other branded underwear. Although they are pricey enough to rival something marketed to women, they are made for comfort and practicality and can be chucked in the washing machine without a thought. Women's underwear often has unnecessary details and trims and is made of delicate fabrics that can be fragile and hard to wash. If men, with their sensitive bits, can live in washable stretch cotton, why do our bits require flimsy satin?

[SnugglySnerd]

Actually in summer I would say men have it worse especially in my workplace (secondary school) they are still expected to wear trousers, collar and tie in hot weather whereas women can wear cooler dresses or skirts, sandals etc. That has nothing to do with whether women's clothes are for the "male gaze" but an example of where women may actually be more comfortable than men for once!

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

If men, with their sensitive bits, can live in washable stretch cotton, why do our bits require flimsy satin?

There is plenty of plain cotton underwear if that is what you want.

I don't get the point of this sort of complaining - you don't like flimsy satin, fine - don't buy it but don't pretend there is no choice other than flimsy satin.

Some of my underwear is that- some of it is cotton, big knicker armpit hugging granny pants.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

The lingerie industry really is the empress's new clothes. It's hard even debating about lingerie because people get so defensive about it, and it's all meant to be about sexy choosy-choices now

Perhaps people get defensive if you come out with statements like that. It is simply nonsense to say it all about sexy choosy-choices. It really is not difficult to buy plain, practical underwear if that is what you want.

I don't wan't sexy underwear. I like pretty, but comfortable underwear, which is what I have got. You clearly don't - fine but your sneering tone isn't.

What is the point of this exaggerated martyrdom about how terrible everything is?

[FizzyWaterAndElderflower]

I am big of boob, and those little foam cups will do less than nothing, and boob-shelfs just give me big, sweaty monoboob.

Up until recently I lived in a hot place, and used either an underwired monokini from bravissimo, or a completely un-cupped shorty swimsuit from Decathlon. Both were fine, both kept bits in comfortable positions. They do exist - you just need to know to go direct to the top of the market (Bravissimo) or the straight sports market (decathlon)

[Ava6]

"You don't have to look very far. Sportshops sell swimsuits without pads and supermarkets (eg Sainsburys) sell bras without them. Both my daughter and I wear lycra comfort bras that have no wires. Some of them have removable pads so I just remove them.
There's masses of choice nowadays, something for everyone. I don't understand why people find it difficult."

Because I live in Australia where the clothing market is very restricted. Yes, sporting stores might sell the cup-free swimsuits but they're MUCH more expensive.

[Ava6]

Perhaps people get defensive if you come out with statements like that. It is simply nonsense to say it all about sexy choosy-choices. It really is not difficult to buy plain, practical underwear if that is what you want.

I don't wan't sexy underwear. I like pretty, but comfortable underwear, which is what I have got. You clearly don't - fine but your sneering tone isn't. What is the point of this exaggerated martyrdom about how terrible everything is?

It's not exaggerated because men don't have to face those choices ever and they're the ones who make the rules. Where're all the frilly lingerie stores for men? There are none because men don't get coerced by society to cater to the female gaze.

[Ava6]

Actually in summer I would say men have it worse especially in my workplace (secondary school) they are still expected to wear trousers, collar and tie in hot weather whereas women can wear cooler dresses or skirts, sandals etc. That has nothing to do with whether women's clothes are for the "male gaze" but an example of where women may actually be more comfortable than men for once!

I used to think like that when I was a mainstream feminist too. The fact of the matter is that it's STILL about the male gaze. Skirts and dresses offer accidental benefit to women in summer but their comfort is not the reason they're considered womens' clothes. Male designers and legislators never sat there thinking: hey, how can we make the gals comfy? They instead thought: "those silly females are only good for pleasing our eye and loins, and they don't need to do anything Useful and manly anyway".

[Ava6]

Bras are a particular nightmare for me because of intense sensory sensitivity due to ASD. I don't tolerate any primarily synthetic materials and it's impossible to find bras without some artificial components. Even when they're mostly cotton, the clasp or the elastic is synthetic and feels like it's burning into my skin. I still grudgingly wear them, but ditch them whenever the outfit allows for it (mostly in summer) and make sure to alternated the wired ones with the stretchy ones. There was once a bra trial I participated in where the designers replaced the wiring with some flexi plastic material. It really was amazingly comfortable at the front, but it cut in badly at the sides.

As for sexy choosy-choices in regard to lingerie - people don't focus on what those choices stem from. They don't stop and think why men never make those sexy choosy choices - and it's because they don't have the burden of being decorative objects. They don't shop for skimpy uncomfortable undies to please their lady on Valentine's day because they created the social structure underpinning those choices.

What do you call those vertical elastics men used to wear in place of belts back in the 40s or so? In my dream world men would wear those as lingerie because for some strange reason they turn me on like crazy

[wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool]

Ava6 I'm the OP of the other thread you couldn't find, Women's Clothes Number 1 I suppose. Just wanted to say great thread, really interesting, and great responses to all the choosy choice comments. Thanks for posting.

[Zoll]

@Ava6, though I realise this is not actually the point of the thread, I feel compelled to recommend Cottonique bras for that issue. They ship worldwide. And there's another shop that is I think Polish? I don't know. If you ask on Style and Beauty there are bra experts that know, like, all the bras in the world and will diagnose the bras for you. (They are pretty amazing!) There's also the bratabase

There's also a good shop called smth like swimforall... Swimsuits For All that's the one. Does up to size 34 US.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

it's not exaggerated because men don't have to face those choices ever and they're the ones who make the rules. Where're all the frilly lingerie stores for men? There are none because men don't get coerced by society to cater to the female gaze

Oh fgs no one is forcing you to shop at Anne Summers or Agent Provocateur. There are masses of options.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

• I used to think like that when I was a mainstream feminist too. The fact of the matter is that it's STILL about the male gaze. Skirts and dresses offer accidental benefit to women in summer but their comfort is not the reason they're considered womens' clothes. Male designers and legislators never sat there thinking: hey, how can we make the gals comfy? They instead thought: "those silly females are only good for pleasing our eye and loins, and they don't need to do anything Useful and manly anyway".

[GuardianLions]

I choose to wear boring cotton underwear, but I have had ex boyfriend's complain about it and I am sure I can't be the only one - I never hassled them to wear sweaty satin ball-huggers, but because of the constant reinforcement of the male gaze, males felt entitled to hassle me about my choices. Is it really a free choice if you can feel hassled to choose different?

[noeffingidea]

Ok Ava6 I didn't know you live in Australia. Are there no discount sports shops there? We have Sports direct where virtually everything is under £10. Even supermarkets sell swimwear and sportswear here.
I thought the majority of people dressed very casually in Australia. Obviously I was wrong if you feel 'coerced' into dressing for the male gaze.
I've got to be honest though, I've never really felt that way, even when I was younger and I don't think most women around me do either. Nearly everyone is dressed for comfort, I hardly ever see anyone in high heels (admittedly during the daytime as I don't go out at night).
Comfortable cotton underwear is usually cheaper here than the lingerie type, though it probably is more expensive for women who need very large sizes.

[FactsAreNotMean]

I'm an aspie too and I have pretty much opposite issues with clothing - mens's clothes would be the antithesis of comfort for me since I loathe wearing trousers (can't stand restrictive waistbands so dresses are my friend). I have big boobs and going braless is immensely uncomfortable especially when it's warm. No amount of good vests or posture is going to stop underboob sweat and rashes if I don't wear a bra. Swimsuits without cups are painful as they basically strap my boobs down (they never have sufficient space) so it's essentially breast binding.

I'd agree women have more choice than men, although I'd like to see a bit more choice in properly smart clothing for women - I've spent the last couple of months desperately seeking a nice smart black or navy suit but because I'm not slim enough for flat fronted/pencil skirt styles I can't find a thing. Whereas men's suits are readily available in every possible size.

That said, I really dont' think sneering about mainstream feminists is the way to go tbh.

[LittleWingSoul]

Facts I am also an ardent dress wearer because I find waistbands uncomfortable, even when I have been at my slimmest I find they either dig in, fall down or show too much from behind! Also jeans are so restrictive, stiff and uncomfortable to me. Don't get their popularity at all! I generally wear dresses and have never considered this might be preferable to the male gaze.