I hate the terms MtT and FtT.

[Miffer]

This is all going to be a bit garbled so apologies in advance.

Okay, I wanted to post a thread about transwomen who are allies and what their role is/could be in feminist thought, especially around harmful masculinity. I fell at the first hurdle wondering how to title my thread.

I hate the MtT and FtT terminology, I see it as really dehumanising. I get why people use it but it makes really uncomfortable. I don't see how we can argue that people are biologically male or female (let's just leave intersex for the time being) then use "Male to trans" as a thing. From the other side these people are still male if they are trans, isn't that the whole point?

I like the words transman and transwoman as I feel it's clearly defined enough, being one word, to work as intended as it removes the need to add anything to "woman" or "man" when talking about none trans people. That said I have read why other poster object to this and understand completely.

Is it okay that I like to call trans women I respect "her" and "she"? I mean really, obviously I am not asking for permission but rather other peoples thoughts.

[Datun]

Language is important - it is used to manipulate how we think and how we perceive and describe our world. Which is why the trans movement cares so much about it. And why feminists resist calling men women.

^^This

And the giving an inch taking a mile part.

It must be very difficult for genuine transsexuals to have their gender questioned. This is not the fault of women. It is the fault of transactivists telling us that there is no such thing as male and female, or men and women.

In terms of how you address trans people in your own circle, like every other human interaction, it will be tempered with courtesy and friendship.

In terms of talking about it generally, biological terms are now, quite literally, seen as having negative connotations.

This is not only ridiculous, it is dangerous.

Language is important. And it is in real danger of changing the way people think.

[sticklebrix]

I use transman and transwoman. Without a space. I have seen trans posters on this board use these terms so feel okay about using them.

MTT and FTT seem a bit dehumanising to me. But acceptable to use as a response to the term 'cis', which is equally dehumanising IMO.

[M0stlyBowlingHedgehog]

I was thinking about a similar take to this the other day, Miffer, in connection with bumping into a trans colleague (who is very nice, we've never talked about trans issues, we talk about jazz and raspberry pis and the general annoying physical crumbliness that comes with middle age), and thinking how far she was from the trans-activist nutters online (I'm happy to use "she" because she's never been anything other than pleasant and polite).

I came to the conclusion that maybe a guide to my online behaviour should be "if I had to have a discussion about this with her present, how would I present my objections to the trans-activist dogma?" So I'd probably use "she" for transwomen like her who behaved in a decent manner, but not for sex offenders like Ayrton, or attempted murders, or that goady troll Muscato. I'd also use transwoman, but expect to be able to use it in sentences like "transwomen are biologically male, and remain biologically male after transition" and "there is no such thing as a female penis." I'm guessing, since she comes from a scientific background and seems like a decent and thoughtful person, she'd probably agree, though probably tries (given her presumable dysphoria) not to think about it most of the time. I probably wouldn't use MTT (though I have used it) .

I agree that language is important - but its importance resides in making ideas clear. So long as one makes clear that biological facts are non-negotiable, and that use of pronouns is extended as a privilege not a right (and can be rescinded if the person concerned displays male-pattern violence), and that the determinant for accessing women's spaces is biology, not some nebulous sense of gender identity, I think that should be okay. That I think would enable me to still have polite discussions with reasonable trans people while making my position clear (and would still piss the hell out of the transwhacktivists - which I consider an additional bonus).

[Beachcomber]

MTT is a term that feminists started to use because men who claim they are women began to appropriate our identity and attack our rights.

It is a form of resistance - deliberately using language that does not refer to these males as "female" or "women" in any way.

Lots of women began to notice about 15 or so years ago that the trans movement was taking a mile when given an inch. Just look at the insidious use of "trans woman" as a creeping replacement of "transwoman". That seemingly insignificant space bolsters the idea that there are different types of woman of which males are one with the equivalent legitimacy of "biological women".

The term MTT is dehumanizing unfortunately - but not because feminists desire to dehumanize transwomen. It is dehumanizing because the trans movement and ideology are dehumanizing and therefore by consequence accurate language describing what the process of transition does to a person is inevitably dehumanizing.

Language is important - it is used to manipulate how we think and how we perceive and describe our world. Which is why the trans movement cares so much about it. And why feminists resist calling men women.

[Scrumplestiltskin]

I frequent a reddit debate sub that uses trans natal male and trans natal female, BigDeskBob, and although it's somewhat irritating to have to include the "natal" (since you can't actually change sex,) it is very clear. And while trans people may not like it, they can't deny it's accurate and neutral.
I'm okay with MtT and FtT, especially in female spaces, but I understand why trans people may dislike the terms.
AFAB and AMAB were actually appropriated from the intersex community, who are the only ones who can be "assigned", and many of them don't like trans people using the terms.
I use "they" pronouns for trans people if trying to be thoughtful and considerate of gender critical allies who are trans, and use the pronouns of their sex if talking about trans people in general.
Being addressed as one's natal sex is not dehumanising unless you think that sex is inhuman.

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

AMAC is ridiculous. At conception, the embryo is genetically male or female (sex) and hasn't yet been assigned anything. Assignation suggests there's a judgement being made by a person, who might get it wrong. I thought transgenderism was to do with the sex not matching the preferred gender - when an embryo is formed, it has no gender, only sex.

[BigDeskBob]

There are reddit subs, used by both trans and women, who use the terms 'trans natal male' and 'trans natal female'.

[Datun]

I'm not sure, in terms of offence, it matters what names you use. The goalposts change all the time.

Transwomen don't like MtT now. 'Trans women' (with a gap) or trans girl (even when they're middle aged) is currently the preferred name, I believe.

Also CAMAB (coercively assigned male at birth).

Or just 'women'. Until being trans needs to be leveraged, of course.

I quite like TIF and TIM because it acknowledges transition, whilst maintaining the birth six.

[erinaceus]

C for conception

[SylviaPoe]

What does AMAC mean?

[erinaceus]

Oh shit too late to be posting in Feminism Chat.

[erinaceus]

(AMAB and AFAB, not AMAB and AFAB.)

[erinaceus]

Valid. Maybe AFAC and AMAC would be more accurate. I have heard these terms in use by people who were experimenting with their gender presentation.

I do not submit to anyone's tyranny.

[VestalVirgin]

People are not assigned a sex at birth. A sex is observed.

I consider it very counterproductive to use that sort of language (and perhaps that is why I am wary of "transwoman" and "transman" too.)

By using their words, you submit to their tyranny.

[SylviaPoe]

AMAB and AFAB don't say what somebody states they are currently though, which is what everyone is trying to describe.

[erinaceus]

I like AMAB and AFAB - assigned male at birth and assigned female af birth. If you want to switch pronouns, no biggie although I have trouble keeping up some days.

[OkPedro]

It makes my head feel like it's going to explode 😫

[SylviaPoe]

I appreciate there are situations where people are attempting to honestly and clearly state what they have and have not done physically, and situations where the discussion is around treatments being carried out on children.

But these are very different to people deliberately creating ambiguity. And that is what 'queer' means in the queer theory sense. Queer means ambiguity and uncertainty. It's one of the reasons why I dislike it being applied to LGB people, because that isn't usually the intention of LGB people at all.

[VestalVirgin]

As I cannot be certain of anything, I'm going to consider all trans people to be non females as they are deliberately creating uncertainty and ambiguity around what sex they actually are.

That's a good idea and one I am going to adopt, actually.

The non-binary person who I thought was female and who screamed death threats at me was really a wake-up call - I thought I could trust that person to be reasonable and treated her as female, (by trusting her more than I would a random male) but the misogyny and aggression level was really more male typical.

[SylviaPoe]

I assume I'm holding a minority view within people who are gender critical. Most gender critical people consider there just to be female and male.

As far as I'm concerned there are male people who state they are male, female people who state they are female. But there are also people who state they are trans (trans women, trans men, non binary, gender fluid etc etc) who may be male, may be female or may be people who have been prescribed medical treatments which have an impact on their physical strength, aggression levels etc. As I cannot be certain of anything, I'm going to consider all trans people to be non females as they are deliberately creating uncertainty and ambiguity around what sex they actually are.

That's about my own safety and wellbeing, not theirs.

[VestalVirgin]

But I do think it is worth considering that some transmen have, due to medical treatments, testosterone levels far outside the range of what women have, and so in that sense they have become something other than simply female. It's not just a social change; it is a biological one.

True.

We should differentiate between those who have taken testosterone and those who have not, but that's hard to do when the transactivists never differentiate at all.

TIF for those who made no changes and FTT for those who have?

[EBearhug]

I get the point about dehumanising, but transmit, transwoman - they're not as clear as MtT or FtT. Did a transman start as a women and is now a man, or vice versa?

[SylviaPoe]

I don't like the terms either.

But I do think it is worth considering that some transmen have, due to medical treatments, testosterone levels far outside the range of what women have, and so in that sense they have become something other than simply female. It's not just a social change; it is a biological one.

[SerfTerf]

When I was new to the whole subject, I had to stop and think about "transman" and "transwoman" every single time. They're not intuitively meaningful to me. There's something vector-like in the way MtT and MtF convey the direction of the transition, which is helpful to me, but I do take @Miffer's point about the dehumanising tone. I'd love to win this battle without being unnecessarily offensive to anyone. I'm sure my stance is offensive enough in some quarters.

[Miffer]

Some use TIF and TIM, trans identified female and trans identified male, respectively.
I feel that's most accurate. Though probably best for talking to feminists who know what it is all about

I like that a lot.

I am only thinking about talking about it in online feminist spaces. In real life other factors affect how I speak about these things. At work I would say Transwoman (Nobody can hear a space!) but at home I use a number of terms depending on the person. For instance I wouldn't describe Sophia Burset in the same way as I would Alex Drummond/