What does feminism mean for you?

[WelshMoth]

Just that really. I've always had feminist 'roots' but stupidly don't know how to put it into words.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

When I was in my teens I found Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex very satisfying. Despite the fact It was written more than 50 years ago, it gave me a complete picture of the need for, and purpose of, feminism. I would recommend it to anyone wanting to understand the philosophical basis of feminism.

For me, feminism is based in sisterhood. That's key. Love and empathy. Women can achieve so much if we stick together and have each other's back. DV refuges, rape crisis: these are two of the vital services created by women for women I don't want literal equality, with both sexes treated identically. In most areas the sexes are the same, but in a few important ways we aren't. Maternity involves a lot more time and energy than paternity. Sports is another area.

I guess what I want is liberation. I also want both sexes socialized to be nurturing, empathetic and thinking of others. I feel that, although some of female socialization puts us at a significant disadvantage, there are other elements that should be universal. It would be a better world if boys were socialized to be more caring, to nurture and to abhor violence. If we can't make a world in which male violence decreases, however slowly, feminism is going to be a never ending struggle.

I'm sure that every gain women make is better for everyone. Gender hurts women far worse, but it hurts men too. Freeing gender expectations is good all round.

I'm all too aware of male violence, having been hurt and raped. However I'm also hopeful men can change - and that an increasing number of them want to. I'm biased because I come from an unusually loving, eccentric, functional family, and the start of my feminism was my DF, who told me I could do anything. He made no bones about his conviction that we were the superior sex and that if the world was run by women it would work better. I'm not surr if he's right (Maggie Thatcher) but it was an inspiring start for a girl.

[SheilaFentiman]

Vestal, if you want a lovely book about women, have you read The Elegant Gathering of White Snows, a novel about a group of women who go walking together and share their lives and friendship?

[sniffle12]

For me, feminism is just the bit of equality that relates to women.

It doesn't mean that you think the rights of men or other groups aren't also important, or that there aren't also unique issues and barriers which men face.

Feminism is just the strand of equality which is focused on the issues affecting women.

[picklemepopcorn]

Really good points. I'm really disturbed by the werewolf/vampire/50 shades themes in fiction these days. They make Mills and Boon look harmless.

[Xenophile]

I wouldn't give it to a young teen. There are themes that are explored in detail that might be disturbing for them. However, read it first and then decide if your teen would be ok.

[VestalVirgin]

Really? I haven't read it for some years, perhaps it's worse than I remember.

I haven't read it yet, but this "all women are sex slaves" thing sounds very grim, I cannot imagine it not giving me nightmares.
And the author allegedly said that there is nothing in there that men have not, at some point in history, in some country, done to women.

Such books are very powerful, of course, and the fact that they evoke empathy for their protagonists is a good thing. Generally speaking.
If someone needs a good shake and wake-up call, then the Handmaid's Tale certainly is a good book.

Thing is; I feel miserable already, and am all too aware of all that horror going on; being made to feel empathy for fictional people would drag me down even more.
I also think it might not be a good book to give to a teenage girl who might be struggling with "gender identity" as many nowadays are. Can't imagine that book making someone any more keen to become/stay a woman!

For female teens, I would rather recommend "A Brother's Price" by Wen Spencer, which takes place in a setting where women are the default human.
In times when girls think that having female bodies must inevitably lead to being oppressed and dehumanized, I think such books are better reading material than dystopias where their fears are reality.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

I read the Handmaid's Tale recently and the imagery is vivid, the themes are obviously very adult, and I found it incredibly disturbing. I'm not sure I'd suggest it for a younger teen, maybe a mature 16 plus though.

[picklemepopcorn]

Really? I haven't read it for some years, perhaps it's worse than I remember. I do know the books I read in my teens shaped me and speculative fiction can be quite good for challenging the world order. I'm not blessed with a daughter, but I'm working hard to keep my DSs open minded and open hearted.

[VestalVirgin]

Capitalism and advertising have played a big role in that. They've relentlessly exploited old mentalities and natural insecurities in the name of making money. It's sad.

I think capitalism is built on patriarchy, and needs patriarchy for its continued existence. It is no surprise at all that it has pushed back against the attempts to liberate women.
That's why I am a radical feminist. Within capitalism, you can campaign for women's rights, but you will only ever have rights if you are rich.
Now, most women in first world countries are rich compared to women in third world countries, and we can see how women in third world countries are exploited - as prostitutes, as surrogate wombs, as workers.
Would middle-class women in first world countries be allowed to live in peace and not do too much housework if the raping and the porn-making and the cleaning and the bearing children for entitled males could not be outsourced to other countries?

Noble ladies were well-off in the Middle Ages, they could go and join a convent and learn reading and writing and become book authors. Rich women having it good is not progress, and is not feminism.

Feminism's job is to dismantle patriarchy and give human rights to all women.


I wouldn't give the Handmaid's Tale to a teen. I admittedly haven't even worked up the courage to read it now.

[IAmAmy]

picklemepopcorn it's easy to make mistakes like that and it was clear which book you meant anyway; another excellent suggestion!

Thanks Sheila and I agree. A sadly necessary book.

[Lessthanaballpark]

I went a long time thinking we were 'nearly there', but watching teenagers has helped me see differently.

Yes when I was a teenager I was hopeful that we were moving in the right direction but in many ways we've slid backwards since. Capitalism and advertising have played a big role in that. They've relentlessly exploited old mentalities and natural insecurities in the name of making money. It's sad.

[SheilaFentiman]

"In all of this we've lost our own selves, our instincts and internalised a patriarchal definition of what we should be and how we should behave.

And that's what we need to be liberated from."

Well put.

Amy's suggestions are great; I would be there for your DD when she reads everyday sexism though, I found it tough going (heartbreaking descriptions sometimes). Laura bates also writes for the guardian sometimes so maybe pick some articles too.

[picklemepopcorn]

Thank you/sorry! I knew it was Atwood, I think I must have fat fingered it!

Re feminism, for me it's been about recognising and stating implicit/hidden sexism. I went a long time thinking we were 'nearly there', but watching teenagers has helped me see differently.

[TeiTetua]

Um, 'The Handmaid's Tale' by Margaret Atwood.

[picklemepopcorn]

I would suggest the handmaiden's tale by margaret Atkins, a novel. Read it together and talk about the implications.

[WelshMoth]

I really need to read these books.

[Lessthanaballpark]

Equality would mean to give the other monkey a banana too - or take away the one banana.

Liberation means opening the cage.

This reminds me of Gloria Steinem's words on feminism and liberation: "feminism isn't about women having an equal share of the pie, but about baking a completely new pie" or something like that

Basically saying that we are fucked in the current system that patriarchy has left us and we need a massive overhaul.

Then hopefully both sexes will find freedom a la Chimimanda Ngozie Adichie style.

[makeourfuture]

Our past/present structures have put us in today's terrible and precarious position. We need women.

[GuardianLions]

Sisterhood and resourcefulness in the struggle for women and girls to be liberated from male dominance and misogyny

[Lessthanaballpark]

I think part of the purpose of liberation is to find out who we really are.

Historically we've been defined by men. From Aristotle to St Augustine to Freud we've been told all kinds of crap about who we are and what our motivations are: that we have no souls, that we're duplicitous, that our sexuality is out of control and dangerous, that we are incomplete men who don't know how to orgasm properly, etc etc.

In all of this we've lost our own selves, our instincts and internalised a patriarchal definition of what we should be and how we should behave.

And that's what we need to be liberated from.

[WelshMoth]

Amy - thank you. All great suggestions that I'll probably read myself too.

[WelshMoth]

Vestal, I'm learning from your metaphors. Thanks. I considered the GG Female Eunuch - I may buy 2 - one for me to read too.

[IAmAmy]

WelshMoth I would say the 'Everyday Sexism' book by Laura Bates ,Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's 'We Should All Be Feminists' and 'Delusions of Gender' by Cordelia Fine.

[VestalVirgin]

The only "famous" feminist book by an English speaking author I have ever read was "The Female Eunuch" by Germaine Greer. It has been a while since I read it, but I recall it being written in a nice, no-nonsense style, so should work for the attention span of a teen.

[VestalVirgin]

The liberation bit seems incredibly utopian to me though.

It doesn't mean that we can't work for equality, too.

Think of it as a compass needle. If you want to get to the North Pole, you walk north. You may not ever get there in your lifetime, but it will become noticeably cooler while you walk north, and you will have walked part of the way, so your children don't have to walk all of it.

If you walk without a compass, you might end up walking to a place that is cooler now, because there's wind or shadow, but lies farther south and will get uncomfortably hot, soon.

I hope that metaphor works.


I am realistic about the likelihood of women's liberation during my lifetime, but I consider it important that we make progress, or at least don't move backwards.