Sexism? Racism? Both?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm posting here to restrain myself from again challenging someone on FB. He never listens to me anyway and he's married to someone I love...

He posted something saying that the Black actor (Dixon) in Hamilton who called out Pence is sexist. Allegedly Dixon has made comments on Twitter about 'white women' and therefore it's ironic that he challenged Pence. This posted by a man who repeatedly makes awful sexist jokes about women on FB.

Then I thought about all the men who are soooo worried about Sharia law. They only seem to care about women's safety and rights when a) the men 'threatening' them are Black or Muslim or both and b) when caring makes no impact on their own ability to be sexist. Oh and c) when the women threatened are white.

So is the main issue here racism, sexism or both? Is it just a privilege soup. Or, my favourite explanation; that men just see women as objects which they own and their racism means that they see Black or Muslim men as a threat to their 'property'.

[SweetGrapes]

It is impossible to fill a cup that is already full

[Dervel]

libprog maybe rather than trying to "get" feminism, try to mine down to the actual issues. It sounds like when you get down to the issues you side with feminists. (Bodily autonomy, universal suffrage, equal pay etc).

What you do or do not think about the paradigm of feminism is neither here nor there. You are not a woman, so your precise take on how feminism works isn't required. I mean if you actively want to cause frustration carry on, but it would be worthwhile considering what perspectives you might be missing.

If you're trying to tell feminists not all men are like they fear we are. Try maybe showing them you are not as opposed to repeating it over and over with words. You also cannot rely on reasoning when you would be better off using rhetoric. If you have an idea you'd like to share reason it through by yourself, and then share it, but for heavens sake read the room first and put it in a manner it will be well received based on the audience you find in front of you. The if people are curious they may ask you to expand on your reasoning.

An overwhelming majority of human communication happens using informal logic, but barging in and setting yourself up as lord high commander of logic and reason is arrogant and pure buffoonery. You may think it makes you look big and clever but really it doesn't. It's actually the easiest thing in the world to use basic sophistry to nit pick ideas expressed using informal logic.

It's much harder to reason through an idea, express it with charm, wit and eloquence and then work with other people to explore it rather than setting yourself up as some sort of self appointed professor. Getting at real truth is a bastard hard thing to do at the best of times, on your own you make it practically impossible unless you are an honest to goodness polymath.

If you really want to get to the truth of feminism you won't be able to with so many preconceived notions going in. If all you really want to do is simply tone police people you'll be at it for one fuck of a long time, there are a lot of angry and pissed off people in the world. In addition pissing them off more is unlikely to improve matters is it? However I fear you already know this, and that is the whole point...

[IYonicAllAndIYonicNow]

[MrsTerryPratchett]

But in the plus side, this thread has been well and truly derailed so a round of applause for that.

[IYonicAllAndIYonicNow]

Ha, that's was meant for the pub!

[IYonicAllAndIYonicNow]

Can I just

[DeviTheGaelet]

Jesus. Do loads of men really think this or are we being sock puppeted on an epic scale.
Just do one please guys. I don't care about your pointless ill informedo ranting. I want to read something relevant to the OP

[venusinscorpio]

That's intersectionality for you Lass!

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I wasn't talking about the law Lass. I appreciate the law doesn't recognise that. However the equality laws were put in place because of a recognition that some groups of people (women, disabled lesbian/gay, BAME) were more disadvantaged than others

I know you weren't, but the law quite rightly recognises these equality laws apply to everyone - a point which I have seen missed quite spectacularly in the past on MN.

The point is that it's a bit crass to come onto a discussion board where people are sharing their experiences of being part of a structurally oppressed group, as a member of a privileged group, and use it as a platform for your own intellectual masturbation

Is that what this is ? Maybe I'm not allowed either then since if I am part of a structurally oppressed group it's more than compensated for by the group my class and ethnic origin puts me in.

[venusinscorpio]

I'm intrigued to know what you said defending feminism that got you called a SJW. It rather depends on which board we're talking about, doesn't it?

[IYonicAllAndIYonicNow]

"I have told you before, these sweeping generalizations lead to nothing. It is also not helpful to look for faults wherever you can. You view it as patriarchal/possessive when in reality it is much more driven by nationalism, which is on a steep upward trajectory in the world."


And another irony meter bites the dust!

[MysticTwat]

[libprog]

MysticTwat - funny, from being on here I feel nothing but the opposite. Not surprised you don't care, fits in well with the collective attitude here.

In fact, maybe I should go join Red Pill, post some of the gems that you guys have come up with, I bet I would be welcomed as a hero.

[MysticTwat]

*Brought up by a feminist

[libprog]

Care to provide some viewing material? I bet you are a real yummy mummy.

[MysticTwat]

(I could show you where else I post, and what I have said there defending feminism, being called a SJW for it, etc. because nothing I have said about my motivation was untrue)

Why would we care

I mainly just lurk here as do many others. I started lurking out curiosity. I was Brought up feminist a very feminist. but I was SO over feminism, and thought modern day feminsts were just a pain in the arse now, and should move on.....

From sitting and reading many articulate, intelligene women on here its has re-ignited my interest, and shown me we in this country and around the world still have a long way to go, and feminism is still very relevant.

What I see from your posts on this board is you making a bit of a tit of yourself.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

You can fap yourself into a frenzy on your other board all you like, but I still won't care.

Yawn.

[libprog]

If I thought for one second you were remotely interested in learning, I might, but you're not, so...No.

I think A Voice For Men or Red Pill need you back now, tbh.

Lol'd. You think I go to those sites? And earlier you said you don't live in a bubble. This is too good to be true. Would you be humored to be proven wrong (I could show you where else I post, and what I have said there defending feminism, being called a SJW for it, etc. because nothing I have said about my motivation was untrue).

[FreshwaterSelkie]

If I thought for one second you were remotely interested in learning, I might, but you're not, so...No.

I think A Voice For Men or Red Pill need you back now, tbh.

[libprog]

Tell you what lib you work on converting teenage wankers to feminism and I will work on all the stuff I already work on.

Why would I waste my time on that? As (one of) you said, I am a privileged white male, this works for me.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Tell you what lib you work on converting teenage wankers to feminism and I will work on all the stuff I already work on.

[libprog]

Selkie aso why equate knowledge with ability? Also name me one assumption I made. And shame really, because even the smarter people will look stupid if their arguments are based on personal biases.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

I know what the dunning kruger effect is, lib and I used it exactly as I intended. One of the things they tested is people's perception of their ability in logical reasoning, versus their competence. You are making assumption after assumption here that YOU know how to be logical, ie that your ability in this regard is superior and that your conclusions are correct, and that we don't, and our logical reasoning is inferior, and our conclusions flawed. Based on...well, nothing as far as I can see, other than that's how you gauge your ability. There are a lot of highly qualified, extremely intelligent people here (and I'm not talking about me, but of the posters that I admire), so your assessment that your skills are greater is definitely flawed.

We could just call this you being irritatingly superior, if you prefer, though. No skin off my nose.

However, if we're so intellectually limited, I'd just give up if I were you.

[libprog]

"Another 'feminist' monopolizing (sexual) harassment. Another sweary word redacted reducing trauma to a glib talking point." "I feel so sorry for you now, where can I sign up for feminism weekly?" I have heard your post and that exact reply elsewhere. Your argument is falling on deaf ears on anyone but those who agreed with you to begin with.

venus - fair points, but then tell me, if I am not new, why do you not change your tactics? the world has moved on, there are young boys out there watching (violent) porn on the internet, being told by Milo et al on the internet that they can be offensive and that men need to take back what's theirs. And on the other side you have women like Mrs Pratchett who make ridiculous blanket statements, to which a young male is very likely not able to relate to AT ALL. So tell me, do you think your movement (which is what feminism is, right, not saying that in a bad way) is going anywhere?

In the face of repeating myself, I came here after being called a SJW elsewhere and to check this out to see if I will still side with feminists. And yes I have been challenging, but so what? Instead of seizing upon that and putting forth something sensible, I have been called a pimp or john, and a rash. It's almost as if you want to be hated, because you enjoy the victim role.

[venusinscorpio]

The point is that it's a bit crass to come onto a discussion board where people are sharing their experiences of being part of a structurally oppressed group, as a member of a privileged group, and use it as a platform for your own intellectual masturbation. Or assume it's the women on this forum who need to learn a lesson, rather than you. Do you think we've never heard your ideas before? You're hardly original.

And as for telling feminists how to do feminism, are you familiar with the expression "concern troll?" That's why people think you're being goady.