is Atonement sexist?

[paintandbrush]

Why?

I realise that it features a lot of female characters making poor choices, but the men aren't great either. There have been quite a few accusations of misogyny against McEwan for this one. Will anybody explain the logic behind it all?

[PinkIndustry]

I think what's going on this thread is literary analysis, Cote which, if you are not used to it, may seem a little confusing as the whole point of it is to delve beyond the literal.

I think IM's novels are very misogynistic and the ending of 'Attonement' made me angry that I had wasted my time and investment in the novel, simply to have the author pull a smug and 'look-at-me-aren't-I-oh-so-literary' unconvincing twist at the end. Enduring Love is full of tension between the rational, scientific male protagonist (Joe) and his 'emotional', 'irrational' wife (Clarissa) and the 'deranged', religious homosexual (Jed) with, of course, the rational, determined hero winning out in the end in spectacular 'action-man' style. Also, one of his earlier novels, 'The Cement Garden' fetishises incest with the main character trying to control his sisters' sexuality.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

and the ending of 'Attonement' made me angry that I had wasted my time and investment in the novel, simply to have the author pull a smug and 'look-at-me-aren't-I-oh-so-literary' unconvincing twist at the end

It made me cry but on reflection I agree with you. I'm quite a fan of the unreliable narrator but it's a really heavy-handed use of it. A successful unreliable narrator should be subtle; it should creep up on you unawares - here it's a "ha-ha - fooled you"

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The characters don't overtly blame the victim ; the text itself does.

[CoteDAzur]

Bless. Do you, really, Pink? How fascinating.

This is what I replied to, and I shudder to think that it might be what passes for literary analysis in your world >> So what would you consider victim-blaming, if not the events in Atonement? It's not just a pretty girl who likes to dress up co-incidentally gets attacked. It's pretty girl leads on older man (so kind of her fault), gets raped, actually likes it (hence agrees to marry him) - what!! - and in the meantime lies about having been raped (cliche and a dangerous one). In contemporary terms it's 'why were you wearing that skirt?' and 'why did you text him the morning after?'

If you would like to find out whether or not I am "used to literary analysis", you might like to show your face on 50-Book Challenge threads sometime.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

I haven't seen that thread: sounds interesting.

[PinkIndustry]

I've never read the 50 book challenge thread - I'll check it out.

"Ha-ha fooled you" - a good way of describing it, Lass !

[CoteDAzur]

Come along, Seek. 50-Book Challenge 2016. It is the 4th thread of 2016. I'm currently reading my 26th book of the year, which is slow compared to some others who have already passed 100.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

Yeah, I had a look: lots of well read people, certainly!

[PinkIndustry]

I had a look, Cote and I get where you're coming from now. It is, as you say, true that no-one literally blames Lola for her own rape in 'Atonement.'

[CoteDAzur]

"characters don't overtly blame the victim ; the text itself does."

I don't think so. "The text" you have a problem with (she cared about her looks, flirted with people, wore perfume, etc) are the recollections of a child who wasn't a fan of Lola on that day - a bit jealous and also upset that Lola stole her thunder in her play. She gets a lot of attention, she is vain, she paints her toenails, has a grownup perfume etc. It's one girl talking about another.

Her looks, "flirting", dress etc are never used as a stick to beat her up with. Nobody even suggests that she might be to blame for the attack. It's been years since I read Atonement so can't say I remember every detail, but going on the bits you quote I still can't see any victim blaming.

[PinkIndustry]

And, also worth noting, that no-one in the novel links Lola to Lolita which was going to be written twenty years after 'Atonement' was set. The characters in 'Atonement' couldn't possibly have known about it.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

I would call it victim blaming if anyone were actually blaming the victim. And they don't, not anywhere in the book.

But isn't the fact that we, the audience, know that she lied and ruined his life the blaming referred to here. We blame her.

And the fact that she wasn't blamed by the characters compounds the problem. Because it frames women not only as false accusers but also as being privileged, protected and believed by society whilst the innocent man suffers which is actually the opposite of the truth when it comes to RL rape cases.

Just as Bathsheba Everdene may well be the heroine of the story she is in fact a flighty woman responsible for breaking hearts and making wrong choices and ultimately getting away with it because she has female privilege. This is how Hardy and McEwan believe women to be.

[CoteDAzur]

"I get where you're coming from now. It is, as you say, true that no-one literally blames Lola for her own rape in 'Atonement.'"

I do wish you would stop with the thinly veiled condescension

Not just literally. Nobody even insinuates that Lola may have been to blame for the attack. There is no suggestion that her behaviour or attire might have brought this attack on her.

It has been some years since I read Atonement so don't claim to remember every detail, and would be happy to be corrected if there is something you can come up with other than her depiction as a girl who likes to dress up and flirt.

[CoteDAzur]

Theydont - re "isn't the fact that we, the audience, know that she lied and ruined his life the blaming referred to here. We blame her."

Yes, we do. Briony isn't the one we are talking about, though. Pink and Seek believe that the book portrays Lola (the girl who was attacked) as responsible for her rape, because she liked dressing pretty, wore perfume, etc.

[CoteDAzur]

"also worth noting, that no-one in the novel links Lola to Lolita which was going to be written twenty years after 'Atonement' was set. The characters in 'Atonement' couldn't possibly have known about it."

I agree that it's worth noting, which is why I said it about 9 hours before you.

[houseeveryweekend]

I think its pretty boring. Its the most boring of his novels. I cant say I sat there thinking 'god this is sexist!' though..... I really loved 'On Chesil Beach' and actually found its depiction of the female character very engaging as I had a similar experience when young and you don't often find it written about or discussed. I was brought up pretty much in the dark about my own sexuality and really identified with the woman in that novel. So I suppose I feel like he cant really be that sexist if he wrote a female character that I could identify with so much? I actually found it incredible the accuracy with which he described a lot of things that I had felt, considering some of those experiences I had assumed would be very unique to being female.....

[houseeveryweekend]

And I think it is true that you cant really write novels set in the past without presenting some misogynistic views... I mean that's would just have been how people thought, both men and women. He does have insight into the experiences of women though and the level to which he examines those experiences and the womens reactions to them, perhaps not so much in Atonement but in some of his other work, would really indicate that hes not at all sexist... more that hes just interested in gender roles and their effect on people?

[PinkIndustry]

"also worth noting, that no-one in the novel links Lola to Lolita which was going to be written twenty years after 'Atonement' was set. The characters in 'Atonement' couldn't possibly have known about it."

I agree that it's worth noting, which is why I said it about 9 hours before you.

Sorry, I was teasing! Clearly not as thinly veiled as we both thought! Cote, I do think your analysis is too literal. I guess we must agree to differ.

[CoteDAzur]

Teasing? Well done, you. You are so clever. Here's your

If you have anything to contribute, do share. Something less literal, perhaps? Anything other than that "Her name is Lola so that must mean the author is saying she is a sultry little temptress who deserved what she got"?

Just out of curiosity, would you say that the author of the Charlie and Lola series is also channeling Nabokov's Lolita?

[CoteDAzur]

house - re "I actually found it incredible the accuracy with which he described a lot of things that I had felt, considering some of those experiences I had assumed would be very unique to being female."

You have said exactly what I like about Ian McEwan's writing. There is a reason why he is considered one of Britain's best authors, and it is not that he has great stories. His stories tend to be pretty basic, but his insight into people's inner worlds is exceptional.

[PinkIndustry]

Hmm, it's a while since I read Charlie and Lola but I do recall the line "snow is my favourite and my best" or something - perhaps that is a thinly veiled attempt reclaim Lola from the dark depths of abuse and sexual control and link her, instead, to the associations of purity and fresh starts that are often associated with snow?

Seriously, though, you'd have to direct me to the Charlie and Lola text where Lola is groomed, manipulated and raped by an older man (possibly Charlie?) for a more in depth analysis.

Also, don't forget that the target audience of Charlie and Lola is the under 8s and they probably haven't had the time or maturity to read Lolita yet so they couldn't possibly know about it.

[CoteDAzur]

Or you can just admit that naming a character "Lola" doesn't mean the author is insinuating parallels with Nabokov's Lolita.

When can we expect to see your "non-literal literary analysis" of Atonement that reveals the victim blaming you say occurs in the book? I certainly hope the name Lola, her dress & nail polish is not all you have to go on.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

And the fact that she wasn't blamed by the characters compounds the problem. Because it frames women not only as false accusers but also as being privileged, protected and believed by society whilst the innocent man suffers which is actually the opposite of the truth when it comes to RL rape cases

The book is set in 1935. All the characters except Robbie are upper class. The rallying round Lola seems to me entirely credible for the period.

And I think it is true that you can't really write novels set in the past without presenting some misogynistic views

I agree. I don't know enough about Mcewan and his work to know if, as House says he is interested on gender roles but I do think the accusations of sexism are stretching the interpretation of the book, literally and at a sub-text level to breaking point.

Some where on here the book is also accused of "classism" - that is rather the point of it. Robbie is the son of a servant. If Robbie had been Roberta and had been raped by Paul the characters would have probably rallied round Paul.

[Trills]

The descriptions of Lola's clothes and nail polish and mannerisms are all the recollections of Bryony, who was 12 at the time and seemed (to me) to be envious. Bryony was still a little girl, Lola was nearly a woman.

In a way it felt as if Bryony was a tiny bit envious of the rape. Not of the attack itself but of the idea that a man would find her attractive and want to do sexual things to her.

(and yes I know that in reality rape is not about attraction, but I don't think I had very clear thinking about this when I was 12)

Not sure if McEwan wanted me to get that impression, or what it says about him if he did.

[paintandbrush]

Dear me, this one seems to have kicked off.
Do you think if we wrote to IM's agent, they could put us in touch with him to ask about the Lola/Lolita thing? I reckon there's definitely something in it.

But more than female privilege, class bias is a huge theme- see Danny Hardman being the automatic suspect, the gardener's lad. Paul Marshall is never even questioned. Bryony finds it easy to convince herself and others of Robbie's guilt because he is the cleaner's son.

We're supposed to believe that each character has something to atone for- Lola's crime lies in her silence, which seems a little troubling.