“Women like that are the reason so many women don’t come forward…”

[NotMyRealName2015]

I’ve just been mulling this over today after seeing/ hearing the above phrase (or some variation thereof) used several time over the last few days. Each time referring to a woman who had supposedly falsely accused a man of rape or sexual assault. Obviously, falsely accusing someone of rape is an abhorrent thing to do and anyone who does so whilst of sound mind, should be properly punished for this. However, after recently seeing this phrase being repeated on MN and hearing it in conversation I’ve been thinking about it a lot.

Maybe I’m a bit late in realising this, but isn’t this just another way of making women responsible for sexual assaults? It’s well known that many women who’ve been assaulted are afraid to come forward due to fear of not being believed but, in my experiences, this is because of the low prosecution/conviction rate, the myths surrounding rape and the unhelpfulness of some police forces and prosecutors. Not because of the very small number of women who have made false accusations.

On the other hand, I suppose it could be said that false allegations may be on the mind of a jury in an assault trial, potentially influencing their verdict, and that thought could be on a woman’s mind when considering reporting. But these numbers are so small compared to the number of actual rapes committed. It seems completely illogical that something that happens so rarely (false allegations) could have such a big impact on something that is comparatively common (rape or assault).

Surely this phrase could make women even less likely to come forward, as it increases the fear of not being believed and then being labelled as one of those women (“women like that…”)? However it is generally used in a ‘supportive’ manner IYSWIM (i.e. if these women didn’t lie, ‘real victims’ would be believed) and usually by other women (although I realise this is a big generalisation based on my observations only).

Any thoughts? Am I massively overthinking this? Or am I only just realising something which is blatantly obvious? Apologies if this has been discussed on here before, but I didn’t remember ever seeing it directly brought up.

[Samantha28]

Having sex with a woman who has not consented is rape.

I suggest you learn a little more about the law, before you find yourself in prison . Where you can discuss you views on rape and consent with the big boys on the block .

[FreshwaterSelkie]

There is no, you'll be thrilled to hear I have reported you for your vile rape apologism.

[BreakingDad77]

It does frustrate me to often see the same dickheads posting on say metro comments etc with "men are always being falsely accused/destroying lives" type crap which people seem to agree with. Though rarely the counter well what about the womans life being destroyed is posted.


We need to teach consent in a very different way

I only have very poor recollections of what happened at school in terms or relationships and sex education.

How is consent covered these days?

[PalmerViolet]

There have recently been a couple of fairly eye opening threads.

One, where a woman and her friend had been attacked, and a series of posters were saying that, basically, if they didn't report it, then they were somehow to blame for any attacks he made on women after them.

Another, where a woman's husband had been suspended from work for sexual harassment and pretty much every single poster suggested that she must be lying, and that, because she hadn't been to the police, she'd be shown to have lied at tribunal/investigation. I realise that these comments were made in order to support the poster, but the rape myths that abounded were a sight to see.

Women. Blaming other women for men's violence and assuming that women are lying about sexual assault.

How far have we really come?

However, from experience, most women I know who have suffered serious sexual assault/rape haven't reported because they knew they weren't the 'perfect victim'. And the CPS seems to be unwilling to prosecute unless the victim is basically Mother Theresa/Mary, Mother of God. I get why, but it does mean that a lot of rapists are getting away with it.

Can you imagine what would happen if every woman reported every sexual assault? With an obvious exception, I don't know of a single woman who hasn't been sexually assaulted at some time in their lives. Maybe we all should, maybe then someone would take note.

[grimbletart]

If you set up a scenario of a crime taking place in front of, say, half a dozen people and then asked them all to recount what happened, then recount it again and maybe a third time, no prizes for guessing that many if not all of the witnesses would show minor inconsistencies in the timing or sequence of events.

And these would be people who were not traumatised by being the victim of a serious crime like rape themselves.

[amarmai]

have you read the AIBU thread entitled 'WWYD if your boyfriend were accused of sexual assault" ?
I cannot get over the mners who are casting doubt on the young teen who beleived she was sexually interfered with as she slept at a relative's house.
Here i just read that Marie's 'minor inconsistencies' are typical in cases of SA of young women. It was her foster mothers who used them against her and encouraged the police not to beleive her.
I read similar attacks on the young teen in the AIBU thread .
I don't know if i cd advise any young woman to report rape.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I remember watching what I think was an episode of LA Law, so must have been decades ago. The female lawyer was deciding whether or not to take a case of a man accused of rape. They polygraphed him and he passed with flying colours. She defended him, he got off. Only after this she realised that he was a rapist, he just was also a sociopath who didn't understand consent, bodily autonomy and women's right to choose.

Really interesting, way ahead of it's time and should be recommended watching for people. We need to teach consent in a very different way.

[thedancingbear]

I appreciate your point, itllallbefine, but I'm afraid our own family members don't get a special pass here. Certainly by the time the police are seriously involved, the stats suggest that a rape probably has occurred. We would need a good reason to believe our kids in that situation beyond 'but he's my son'.

This said (and to get back to the point of the thread) I think that small handful of women who make false allegations are getting a bit of an easy ride here. Yes, there are far more true rape allegations than false ones; yes, the media tends to zone in on cases involving a false claim. But, nonetheless, those false claims, individually and collectively, make it much, much fucking harder for the true claims to be taken seriously. Obviously, they are by no means the only reason convictions are hard to secure (and by extension why women don't come forward) but they are certainly a part of the mix. The rare instances of false allegations seem to me to be as much an affront to actual rape victims as to the accused man.

[itllallbefine]

I know if my own son was accused of rape I would believe him when he said he didn't do it and I wouldn't like the fact that other women assumed he was guilty, and would encourage other women to assume the same because some prick felt their arse or had made lewd comments to them in the past.

[OnTheSunnySide]

"I don't doubt that some men are raping scumbags, it's well established that they are. The question is whether you should always automatically assume that the man being accused of being one, is one, because a woman says he is."

given the teeny amount of false claims and the HUGE amount that go unreported I would say the chances of him being one is quite high.

[itllallbefine]

I don't doubt that some men are raping scumbags, it's well established that they are. The question is whether you should always automatically assume that the man being accused of being one, is one, because a woman says he is.

[PiperChapstick]

Not much to say except I agree with the OP 100%. I also can't abide when fuckwits people say, when a man is not convicted of rape or sexual assault, "name and shame his accuser"

[Noneedforasitter]

There's a detailed account of a sports-related rape case in "Night Games" by Anna Krien. One of the proposals it considers is some sort of restorative justice for victims of rape. The idea is that being believed and receiving an apology from the perpetrator is important for the recovery of the victim. In Australia (I think) there are even arguments to avoid the court system altogether in exchange for a mediated acknowledgement and apology by the rapist. That may be too lenient on the rapist for people to stomach, but it is worth consideration.

I agree with Samantha that the fear of going through a court process only to have the accused acquitted would be a significant factor for any victim. I think it must be the low conviction rates that deter victims from coming forward, more than the false accusation cases.

[Meeep]

slugseatlettuce
I'm glad someone told her story though.

[Samantha28]

If I was raped, my decisions to go to the police would not be influenced by the fact that some people lie about some crimes . I would consider things like the circumstances of the crime and the likelihood of being believed and treated well by the system and the person being caught and convicted .

So if I was raped at knifepoint by stranger outside a police station and I was sober and wearing trousers and a coat , I might consider that I would be believed.

If I was raped by someone I knew ( like most women ) and I was doing what most women do on a night out ( drinking ) and wearing what most women do on a night out then I would probably not go to the police. Because I know I would be put through more hell, it would take over my life for years . And that he would more than likely get off because he would say I consented and I could not prove I didn't .

If I was burgled or had my car stolen, I wouldn't have to prove that I didn't consent . I wouldn't be harassed in court by counsel . I would report these crimes .

[PalmerViolet]

You are so right Victoria.

People do lie to researchers.

As was shown in a study where men denied they had raped or would rape when that word was used, but would readily admit to rape if the questions were posed without the word, but with the crime described. I might be wrong, but I believe that the results have been reproduced as well.

Do you feel equally bad about men being put on the rational, moral and stable pedestal? It seems jarring to say that the pedestal is just as wrong as a society which generally regards women as emotional, irrational and a bit dim to me. I might be wrong though.

[itllallbefine]

I think the problem is that the reporting of "false" rape claims is given such prominence. I don't know why this is the case, but maybe journalists think it's a more entertaining or salacious story ?

e.g. in my local area, front page news has been made by e.g. :

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-35168499
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/married-woman-s-fake-rape-claim-after-consensual-sex-1-3744112

Because these cases are unusual ? They seem to hit the headlines for sure.

Although for the 2nd one I would say more that we need to change the assumption that because a defendant was found not guilty, that automatically means the accuser made a false or malicious accusation. What I hate is the immediate cries of “what a lying bitch the accuser must be/ she could have ruined his life/ she should be prosecuted, etc” as soon as a man is acquitted. Horrible.

I see saw on this. If someone thinks they were raped they probably were. The law needs to be clear that if someone gets off because they didn't realise they were committing rape or whatever bullshit "reasonable belief of consent" they had was at play, then they still committed rape, I think this is what most people have difficulty dealing with. The fact that you can be tried and cleared of rape but still actually have had sex with someone against their will.... it doesn't make a lot of sense.

On the flip side, I see it said that men who pursue false allegation claims after being cleared of rape are acting maliciously. The numbers who will go down this route will surely increase if the public regards being cleared of rape in a court of law as usually "still a rapist, got off on a technicality". I don't think most people would think that about their own son/partner/father if they were accused of rape ? You seem to be advocating that a man cannot really clear their name after being accused of rape UNLESS they also pursue charges on false allegation ?

[VictoriaOKeefe]

Pretending that all women should be, or are, stable, wise and moral is the suffocating opposite of misogyny - the pedestal. It's worse than Disney. Also statistics prove nothing as people can and do lie to pollsters and researchers. You only have to look at the 1992 British election where polls showed Labour winning to see that.

[myfirstandonlylove]

Mrs Terry it is worth saying that Zanys sons are also vastly vastly more likely not to be rapists especially having been so well brought up than they are to be rapists.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

And, incredibly and horrifyingly, they are much, much more likely to actually be rapists than either be accused of it or suffer it.

[Zanymummy]

As a mother i do worry like all mothers do but let's not forget how serious a rape charge is compared to theft but i don't dwell on it as such was just sharing a hidden fear that's all but being a bit more realistic once they hit their teens or late teens the chances of them being seriously assaulted is more likely than them being accused of rape so i try and drill in them some street wise sense to keep them safe when going to footie etc