Owen Jones on trans rights. Again!

[CallaLilli]

Whilst I do think this case is very sad, I'm not sure Owen should've co-opted it for his little crusade. And the penultimate paragraph is just insulting to women and black people.
http://gu.com/p/4eczh

[caitlinohara]

Otto seems highly unlikely to be an isolated incident then. It just pisses me off that all the articles I've come across glaze over the facts in favour of the argument.

Instead of threatening to commit suicide if you are sent to a male prison, maybe just don't get yourself sent to prison in the first place?

[OneMoreCasualty]

AFAIK there is as yet no evidence whether there were comments or actions by the other prisoners that might have contributed to Vicky's distress and whether such comments and actions were ones more likely for men to make or if similar comments and actions might have been made by women if a female prison had been selected.

The argument is being made that trans women are safer in female prisons but the physical harm done to Vicky was by herself, rather than inflicted by men on her, AFAIK. No doubt the inquest will say more.

[Elendon]

So Jones ignored:

FTM prisoners, transgender also. They would not be sent to a male prison.

Females who would harm themselves if they knew male bodied prisoners were being sent to their estate.

[caitlinohara]

Elendon in fairness, they probably wouldn't want to be though. Or am I wrong?

It's not really a massive dilemma though is it? Surely if a prisoner is in danger from other inmates they are segregated - I'm thinking child murderers etc. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a trans person should just be chucked in there and left to take their chances. We can't be talking massive numbers here so logistically it can't be a huge issue.

[almondpudding]

There is a clear need for prison reform. A major problem (including in this case) seems to be that vulnerable prisoners (which includes gay, trans, very young, very anxious, those targeted by others because they have committed sexual offences) are all housed together to avoid the general male prison population.

All the other vulnerable groups then don't want to be in that accommodation because being in with a bunch of sex offenders is worse in psychological impact than dealing with the violence of the main prison population.

So would one solution be not to create a special unit in one location for trans prisoners, but to create a special unit in one location for sex offenders who request segregation from other prisoners? Then the vulnerable persons wing in male prisons could be used for trans, gay, very young, very anxious etc male prisoners.

[Elendon]

There are different categories of prisons, this prisoner was sent to a category B prison (therefore she was deemed a flight risk).

Most sex offenders and murders are in Category A prisons and will be segregated because no one working there would want the hassle of looking after them bunched in together.

Vulnerable category Bs are put together, just as vulnerable category As. As and Bs are not mixed, it wouldn't happen.

[almondpudding]

Elendon, that seems to not be the case.

One of many examples here:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Albany

It seems to be an extra punishment to house sex offenders and vulnerable prisoners together.

[PlaysWellWithOthers]

Iirc, most sex offenders are housed in their own prisons within prisons due to the nature of their crimes. They tend to only house sex offenders in those segregated areas, so, unless the TW was also a sex offender not without the bounds of reality they wouldn't be housed with sex offenders, but with other prisoners segregated for the reasons almond suggested.

This would also go some way toward negating the negative effects of being placed in prison far away from your support networks. As this already happens, I'm not sure why these discussions keep cropping up.

Out of interest, I believe that statistically, women and PoC are the most likely to die in custody.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

And don't forget you have to also house people like prisoners who owe money, prisoners at risk because of 'snitching', prisoners who... Those prisoners may well be dangerous and in danger. You can't use solitary because it's considered torture (and should be).

A revolutionary idea would be to treat prisoners as human being, use small units, have more guards but have them trained in very different skills, rethink the whole idea of prison. Because rape and violence shouldn't be the norm. Particularly when someone is there not of their own free will, so many are vulnerable; PDs and MH and LDs and addiction is an issue for pretty much everyone.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

I do find Jones' attitude misogynist, unfortunately. He gives a distinct impression of not taking women seriously unless they were born with a penis, in which case they count as much as men. You would have to have a view of women as morally inferior to be quite as ready as he is to dismiss women's serious objections as bigotry.

[almondpudding]

Prison reform charities have already, recently, made a report on what they think the issues are for trans people and prison reform. They were not in favour of increased access to women's prisons.

I am generally in favour of columnists using their position of privilege (in the old fashioned sense of the word to highlight the research and positions of charities.

I am not impressed by the Owen Jones approach of giving a barely informed opinion on whatever topic leaps out at him this week.

As I've said before, he talks nonsense half the time. When he talks sense, it is generally because it is an issue he has researched extensively and is committed to.

[abbieanders]

Yeah, but why would he waste his lovely man mind on what a bunch of fannies think?

[Funnymousey]

I have read the article and i genuinely don't understand why you are calling Owen Jones a misogynist! Can someone explain ?

[ottothedog]

It's his whole attitude and articles/twitter over the last few years. Have you read anything else he has written about issues involving women? There was a big bust up last year. Google is full of info. Try owen jones cotton ceiling or owen jones misogynist

[ottothedog]

Even this article is all about the menz. No talk of transmen at all. It's all about women having, yet again, to move over and accommodate the men, or in this case, men to women trans

[PassiveAgressiveQueen]

I have been wondering why transwomen get so upset by "the cotton ceiling" is it because men really really really have a thing about lesbians, watching women together.
I think the complainers were really really really excited about getting some of this action themself, and are sulking because they aren't.

[SomeDyke]

" is it because men really really really have a thing about lesbians"?

As a lesbian, I think there are several possible reasons.

Men in general seem to be puzzled by lesbians (gay men included!), because many of them seem to find sex without a penis incomprehensible! I kid you not, it is an attitude I personally have come across from gay men, and supposedly intelligent, educated, informed, politically active gay men at that! So, from Casanova onwards, penis-free sex was somehow seen as not real sex, and usual sense of male entitlement ends up with it as the bit of titillation before manly-man steps in for the REAL event. Hence the prevalence of supposed lesbian sex in straight male-porn.

Okay, so you could see not just male-constructed femininity (make-up etc, and also including porny breast implants and hair extensions etc etc), but male ideas about 'lesbians' ALL being incorporated, either in a voyeuristic 'I watch others', OR in an autogynephiliac 'I do it TOO' trans way.

Frankly, the whole cotton ceiling is all much of a muchness, from trans who get upset because women don't want them in the ladies, or the female changing rooms in your local department store, or the female locker rooms and sauna at your local sports club, to getting upset because 'real' lesbians don't want to join in their pretend lesbian sex games either. Overall, it's the SAME female refusal to accept them into what they see as the restricted magic lady-gardens of TRUE womanhood..............

[MrsTerryPratchett]

the restricted magic lady-gardens of TRUE womanhood Like Narnia, but x-rated.

[VestalVirgin]

Like Narnia, but x-rated.

You mean XX-rated.

It never felt that way to me. :(
Locker rooms are rather boring. No tree nymphs or talking animals there.

[SomeDyke]

Like Narnia
No tree nymphs or talking animals there.
No talking beavers?

[OneMoreCasualty]

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I think talking beavers are more Tales of the Riverbank or Wind in the Willows than Narnia. Unless I've missed something [innocent]

[OneMoreCasualty]

Mr and Mrs Beaver shelter peter, Susan and Lucy.