Feminist Pub XX - may the summer rains wash the patriarchy down the plughole

[NoTechnologicalBreakdown]

Ooh ooh! Do I get to start it?

Wine and cake all round. And a celebratory burst on the patriarchy-blasting cannon!

Old pub here

[alexpolistigers]

Yes, LordCopper, I think it would put a very different perspective on it. In fact, I am going to try re-reading some old favourites and substituting the male pronouns for female ones as I go along, to see how it feels.

[ChunkyPickle]

That would be an interesting plugin for an ereader... I wonder if you can write plugins for e-readers.... wanders off to google

[LauraMipsum]

Hello everyone, it's been a while. Hope you're all keeping well and it's nice to see the pub again. I'm back at work while juggling the littlie so that's why I've not been in recently.

I would like the largest gin in the world please while I have a huge rant about AI claiming to support human rights while chucking women under the bus.

I have a lot of friends who support AI in this and I can't cope with the ensuing debate on Facebook. I'm particularly avoiding having the discussion that goes "you're just a human rights lawyer, what would you know about human rights, the only people who are trustworthy on the topic of the sale of sex are sex workers who do not actually sell sex but are an authoritative voice on behalf of those who do."

Better make it a double gin and mantears over ice.

[missjoy]

UptoapointLordCopper

Sultanas dream is very intersting espceially as it was written in 1905 yet introduces such ideas as soler power, bit idealistic but its very short and good read if you have 15 mins.

Herland is about a matriarchal society, with women strong, able and intelligent- something the men cannot comprehend. Loved it.

[INickedAName]

There's been some chilling comments on twitter in relation to AI.

One man saying something like "if enthusiastuc consent is a must, then you'll have to ban all sex"

I want to challenge him but I'm kind of scared that I'll get a load of hassle. There's very little info about me on my account but I might make another account, but then I'd feel like I'm hiding, if that makes sense.

[EBearhug]

One man saying something like "if enthusiastuc consent is a must, then you'll have to ban all sex"

You really don't. It might mean that some men end up going without, though. Bit sad, really, if they've never had sex with someone who was enthusiastic about it. Sad for them, really shit for the women.

[kickassangel]

If enthusiastic consent is a must ... Doesn't that just describe sex? Like, the normal, everyday kind?

I hope that many people who read that have a good laugh at how bad his sex life must be for him to say that.

[EBearhug]

It should describe normal, everyday sex. I suspect that it doesn't in more cases than it should.

[StormyBrid]

Without wishing to muddy the waters, I feel I ought to point out that 'enthusiastic' can mean different things to different people. It strikes me as a word suggesting a lot of energetic movement and possibly also a manic grin. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enthusiastic consent rather than lack of no, but every time I read the words I feel uncomfortable, because those words don't leave room for people like me. If physically joining in with gusto is required, then I can't have sex, because of the way my head is screwed up by childhood abuse. I can want sex, I have difficulty verbalising that, and even more difficulty showing that. And so the idea of enthusiastic consent seems to rule out me having legitimate sex.

[LauraMipsum]

I get that Stormy - for reasons too tedious to go into here, it's taken me many many years to be able to have sex in any other way than "tentatively and in total silence." If enthusiasm is construed as wild abandon then that's not me.

[SweetAndFullOfGrace]

I agree Stormy. "Enthusiastic" has connotations that I don't think are necessarily helpful. I would prefer "unequivocal consent". In other words, if you're not sure then don't.

[INickedAName]

I hadn't thought about how enthusiastic can mean different things to different people, in relation to consent, I thought it meant making sure that the woman actually wants to. Apologies if I offended or upset anyone.

I'm going roller skating this afternoon, with dh and dd, I can't wait, and have been in a really really good mood, wish thinks it's a skill that never leaves, and he, at 39, will be as awesome at it as he was at 9. Those 30 years won't have made his body less nimble, no no. Dd is begging us not to embarasses her :)

[Bumblesquat]

~waves~

Hello, I've been pointed in your direction after I started a thread over in chat.
link

Uhm, so I'm gonna lurk for a bit and see what you're all about.

[INickedAName]

Hello bumble, I've not read your thread, iv just popped it on watch list and will have a proper read when I'm back home, but just from the title, I have started speaking in things that's I've kept my trap shut for for years, and dh has commented on how "you've changed" and some things I disagree with him on, wheras I've agreed in the past, it's caused problems, but we've managed to sort it out, extended family is still a work in progress, but in short, yes I've changed, but I'm happier. And the people who value me, think that's a good thing.

[SeraOfeliaFalfurrias]

Afternoon all! I haven't been in the pub (or anywhere much on MN) for ages! Hope all is well, I'll try to catch up.

ChunkyPickle it was me who recommended Elizabeth Moon, that book is called Remnant Population and my username is the main character from the book. I've just started reading her fantasy stuff and it's also good, though I think she does sci fi better. Or maybe it's just that her fantasy is very much like most other fantasy, so it's not as strikingly different and interesting as her sci fi. Still worth a read.

Otherwise, life is good - I had a job interview 2 weeks ago that made me realise how great my current job actually is and has given me a whole new appreciation for it! We've just got back from 10 days at my dad's in France, which had a few moments of feminist frustration but was otherwise very nice and relaxing. And of course, various items in the news have been giving me various levels of Feminist Rage.

How is everyone else? Hi Bumble!

[SeraOfeliaFalfurrias]

Quick question for you all - we've had a few discussions in the past where we started to talk about changes we were making to our diets or exercise regimes to improve our health, but they've always petered out amongst the other discussions even though it seemed that quite a few of us were interested in mutual support away from the "drop several dress sizes before a big holiday/get a beach body" mentality. With that in mind, would anyone be interested in joining in if I start a thread in Feminist Chat for us to get together to discuss our journeys to better health and support each other on the way?

[YonicScrewdriver]

I'd join again sera

Hi bumble!

[SeraOfeliaFalfurrias]

Hi Yonic. We didn't get too far with our last attempt, did we, but it was an open weight loss thread rather than a feminist-specific one. So maybe we'll be second time lucky?

[MsDragons]

I'd be up for that Sera. I have about 4st to lose to be a "healthy" weight. I've attempted to lose weight so many times, but everybody thinks my motivation is to look good and their encouragement makes me want to eat cake

[slightlyeggstained]

A bit late, but to chime in with another SF recommendation - Ancillary Justice and subsequent books (author Ann Leckie) are written from the pov of a character from a society where the default pronoun is female, and they genuinely don't distinguish based on sex. The effect for me is that as I read, I visualised all the characters as female. Occasionaly I'd stop and make myself imagine a character as male, on the basis some must be, but it didn't "take", IYSWIM?

It felt quite satisfying not to be trying to do the reverse & Ripleying in a female character.

[SeraOfeliaFalfurrias]

That sounds great, Slightly, I'll definitely look into those books.

[SeraOfeliaFalfurrias]

Sigh, two frustrations in one. Firstly, a friend has just posted a men's rights video on FB about some man whining that his evil ex won't let him see his kids. And she added a comment that "this happens to so many men, it's really unfair, men should have more rights etc" (very surprisingly since she has a cockwomble exh who doesn't bother much with contact with their DC and fights over paying maintenance).

I wrote a lengthy response about there very seldom being no good reason for women to withhold contact, as most women put the needs/emotions of their children above their own and bend over backwards to facilitate contact, even when the father obviously doesn't give a shit.

Second problem, DH saw me watching the video and asked what it was. I told him it was another man whining about not being allowed access to his kids, when there was probably a good reason his ex has cut him off. He stomped off with a "there are evil women in the world too, you know!". I suspect he is making that common mistake of confusing class analysis with personal attack - thinking that when I talk about "shit things men do", I mean "shit things men including you do", which of course puts him on the defensive. Usually when I try to talk about feminist stuff he just makes stupid jokes until I shut up, because it makes him uncomfortable. While he's about as egalitarian as they come, he isn't very good at analysing his own privilege and certainly doesn't think deeply about women's issues (though I think I have noticed my subtle influence staring to have an effect).

This is the problem with being married to a non-feminist man - when you have a feminist rant that needs to be said in the immediate moments after you read some new sexist bullshit in the news, they're the one who is in close proximity and thus on the receiving end of your rant. But they don't get it, and may respond in a defensive/dismissive/jokey way that just gets you even more cross. GAH!

[Bumblesquat]

Sera - I think you may have applied the hammer to the nail for the underlying cause of mooncupgate and the ensuing fallout (see above for link to thread and details). My husband jumped to offensive mode because he was defensive over my generalisation about sexist men and women in society. He assumed I was lumping him in with cromagnon man and the guy who stands in the pub and scratches his nads whilst talking about which bitches he'd shag.