Some thoughts on rape culture

[Dervel]

I just want to express something surrounding the concept of rape culture. I was having a disagreement with a friend of mine re: it being unwise for a woman going back to a guy's place in that there are often inherent expectations.

Now I disagreed at the time and having had time to reflect I have thought about it in greater depth. I've come to some realisations as to why I want to challenge this assumption.

I have had the fortune to have had many enduring friendships with women over the years, and despite a lot of personal blind spots with regards to gender issues, an awful lot I read on here seems reasonable when corroborated with discussions with friends.

Now obviously I've had many women back to mine (and indeed theirs!) over the years. What worries me is that this default assumption is that it creates this honking great demarcation line that is only going to serve to segregate the sexes further.

I guess my point is I want to challenge rape culture, not only in terms of it being very wrong to victim blame, but in addition it serves to divide us in and of itself by generating fear and separation.

Do you think this is a reasonable position?

I do think the more men and women enjoy genuine friendships with each other the easier it will be to bridge gender gaps, but so much of our society seems geared at separating us, and the biggest culprit it seems is rape and particularly rape culture.

[YonicScrewdriver]

My point there is that rape culture is such, I had no idea at the age of 19 that being that drunk meant consent was impossible.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Red, maybe. But as I said, there are surveys which say if you describe a behaviour without using the word rape, a proportion of men admit to doing things that are rape.

Ched Evans's co defendant was found not guilty of rape; again, I don't think it occurred to him that having sex with a very drunk woman might be a crime.

I once got very drunk with a man I knew well and had fooled around with a couple of times. He got me home and my flatmates put me to bed and he left and berated himself the next day for egging me on to drink so much. If he had had sex with me, I would not have had capacity to consent and it would have been rape. But I doubt even I would have seen it that way, back then, as we had gone out to get a bit pissed and fool around afterwards. However, he wasn't a rapist so all ended well (apart from copious vomiting!)

[redwarf]

that 'ignorance' is depressing. to me it sounds a lot like Not my Nigel. thankfully here at least Ched is seen as a criminal first and foremost and the victim as exactly that. suprisingly the sun of all papers seems to agree, lil rays of sunshine and all that.

[honeysucklejasmine]

Saysone of the Libyan soldier being sent home: "They didn’t tell us about British law and what’s the difference between right and wrong here" link

Translation "we didn't know rape was illegal!" I dread to think what the rape culture is like in Libya! They also are accused of raping a man. The fact that it shocks me that their victim was male upsets me. Why do I assume the victim is female?

[YonicScrewdriver]

Absolutely, ignorance of the law is no defense! But his ignorance is shared by many of his supporters.

[redwarf]

I dont know much of the Julian Assange case so cant comment on that. The Ched Evans one though id say just because he doesnt recognise his actions for what the law has determined they are does not mean it wasnt rape.

I do agree that people need to be educated on what rape is/isnt and enthusiastic consent.

[YonicScrewdriver]

I don't think it's just that, red. There's also a lack of understanding as to what constitutes rape. I think Ched Evans did not believe he was committing rape. I think Julian Assange had no idea that his actions might be rape. There are surveys which say if you describe a behaviour without using the word rape, a proportion of men admit to doing things that are rape.

[redwarf]

#rapecultureiswhen anything other than the rapist is blamed for rape

[YonicScrewdriver]

"Why is there so much resistance to saying this is 100% the rapists action and fault?"

Good question.

[kentishgirl]

I hadn't come across Schrodinger's rapist before, and it's useful to see it expressed so well. I'm sure it's a universal feeling among women. I used to call it my 'you could be a axe murderer' concern.

There's a conflict between what you should be able to expect to do - go anywhere, at any time, with anyone and be safe - and the fact that you know some people are a risk, and there's really no way of knowing which people. So I weigh up each man and situation as best I can, and I prefer to err on the side of taking risks than living with fear/restriction. But I'm aware that society as a whole would judge me for my decision to take a risk, if something went wrong. Victim-blaming is simply a way to remove responsibility from an aggressor, and I ask myself why society feels the need to do that? A rape happens. Why is there so much resistance to saying this is 100% the rapists action and fault?

[cailindana]

I agree with that view to a certain extent. If you're interested in understanding the constraints put on women and where they come from Dworkin is worth a read.

[Dervel]

Well if I may answer the second question first I'd answer society itself (patriarchy?) is the source of the pressure in the way it simultaneously places expectations and limitations on women.

As to what kind of pressure? I think that is a tough question to answer in light of the fact that each individual woman is going to experience those expectations and limitations as individuals rather than as a gestalt entity.

If I could hazard an observation (and also talk in extremely general terms as well!). I think the message a lot of men grow up with is to make their space in the world, and women are expected to find a space. The former requires the self actualisation I spoke of before. Women by contrast are actively discouraged from that as far as I can see women are expected to conform to accepted definitions of femininity before they can be individuals, whereas for most men finding their own individuality is a component of their own masculinity.

This is all quite new to me so I assume and expect there are some huge gaps in my knowledge and perspective.

[cailindana]

When you say "women are under a lot more pressure" than men what sort of pressure do you mean? Where does the pressure come from?

[Dervel]

Good question, and I'm not sure I can do it justice with my current knowledge base, but you asked for an opinion so I'll give it a shot:

Women anecdotally to me at any rate seem to be under a lot more pressure than men. I would venture it has something to do with that.

To expand on that a little I think men are encouraged to self actualise both their own identities and aspirations with little or no societal resistance, and in fact often encouragement. Women by contrast who do the same (it's a human drive not a genderized one). Have to go against the current of expectation, if not actual barriers as well. I think this is something we are all aware of even only unconsciously, and for many we just accept it as the natural order of things, but it's not really.

[cailindana]

Dervel, why in your opinion are women quick to assume responsibility for everything?

[Dervel]

I notice how in addition to all this some women can be very quick to assume responsibility for everything. Amongst my close friends upon a long term relationship breaking down the woman concerned was also the subject of another friends unrequited love. Hardly a week went by and this was expressed, to the additional emotional pressure. I recall her going over everything she'd done to encourage them.

What is so pernicious is this default assumption women often make that they must be responsible for thing that realistically are completely of their control.

[FoxgloveFairy]

Empire, I am sorry that happened to you. Hope you don't think that I was comparing our situations. Really wasn't. My friend probably did simply mean that it was good that nothing more happened. It was. Guess my point was though that it would be even luckier if there were not these sorts of prays in the world. Never going to happen, but a person can dream!

[FoxgloveFairy]

Years and years ago, at 22, I went out with a guy from work. He was actually my supervisor and I was a student nurse doing my psych experience. He asked me out and as he seemed so attractive and "experienced man of the world" I was flattered and agreed. We had a couple of drinks and went back to his. I was to drop him off, as he had a suspended license at the time. He asked me in for coffee. Being a naive, trusting sort, I took this to mean coffee. We kissed, and he then obviously wanted more. I said I didn't want to and that I thought I should go. Truth was, at this point, there was something that creeped me out about him. He said okay and began to walk me to the door. To,get to the door, we walked past his open bedroom door. As we did, he gave me a huge shove backwards into his room, with my knees hitting the end of the bed and obviously ended up on my back on the bed. Got to my feet in seconds and said I was leaving and there was a Mexican standoff for a minute. He stod in the doorway with his arms braced on the door frame. He thought better of pushing it further and "let" me leave. Told a friend who knew this guy and her response was that I had a "lucky escape". Did I really? Or was it that he was just a plain nasty piece of work. Was it really my fault and I was "lucky" that I got out of the situation? Long example, but I think it illustrates that it seems to be women who should avoid danger not men who should not be dangerous.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Dervel, I totally agree about how it works to separate the sexes. I remember thinking, as a young woman receiving these (no doubt well intentioned) warnings not to get into situations where men might get "the wrong idea", how sad it was that one couldn't just enjoy the company and friendship of a man without all these worries. And how disappointing it was that men apparently only enjoyed our company for one reason.

[ethelb]

Happy I'm afraid I don't really like that piece. It focuses too much on stranger danger in dark allies. I'm sure that statistically you are more likely to be attacked by the person you know at church in her analogy.

[HappyHalloweenMotherFucker]

this makes me well up every time I read it

It should be required reading in High Schools.

[SevenZarkSeven]

Well yes it cuts across the entirety of male/female interaction throughout society.

Women in general are socialised & through experience learn to be wary of men. Most men benefit from this even if they don't realise it. In all sorts of ways, often small ones. Much of this behaviour is so ingrained no-one even notices it.

So like if a man comes over in the pub and tries to chat you up and won't leave it, your reaction to him might well be far more polite than the situation warrants.Because we are taught to be "polite" and because we have experiences where things have unexpectedly turned sour. So that man, who may just be a bit of a pratt, gets chatted to nicely and persuaded to go away eventually (maybe) rather than being told to FUCK OFF which is what she actually wants to say. So he has benefited.

Additionally if he is a total arsehole he can then assault her and everyone will say " well what did you expect you were talking to him all night and smiling and stuff"....

Anyway. Of course most men have a normal sense of when someone doesn't want to talk to them and doesn't press it, and some women will just come out with "fuck off" fairly quickly. Although even those ones, probably not every time.