Moments of power in women's lives...

[Martorana]

I am running a serious risk of being deleted for "thread about a thread" but I have been thinking a lot about a situation unfolding elsewhere on this site and I would love other's opinions from a feminist perspective. Basically, the position being held by the vast majority is that the mother should have absolute control over what happens/who holds/sees/ does anything with a new baby for a considerable period post birth. A couple of people even suggest that the father should have no say in any of this for the first 12 weeks. That there is no such thing as unreasonable behaviour in a pregnant/ post partum woman.

This has made me think about the points of power in women's lives. It seems to me that for many women, childbirth and post birth is one of the only times when they are allowed- even expected to put themselves first. In practically all other circumstances, they are expected to appease, to conciliate.

Obviously it's a good thing for women to have power whenever they can- but the complicating factor of this is that it's a power based on hormones and instinct. "They can't help feeling like that- it's the hormones. Let's appease her, she'll be better soon"

A bit like the characterization of any woman who is angry and not conciliatory as pre menstrual.

I am thinking as I write- does any of this make sense? Does anyone have any thoughts?

[georgesdino]

I think a lot of men do step up. Did you see the outrage on aibu when a woman went back on their word about transfering maternity at 6 months. It was all I could never leave my kids, hes selfish asking, a woman makes all the decisions stuff him'

Honestly how many of you would of willingly gave you dh all your maternity? I can as I did it with my first and I see no difference, but most women dont think like me.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

I'd do half and half and so would DH.

Wonder if more men would like to do half and half and the mothers don't want to, or if that's vice versa?

[Martorana]

"Wonder if more men would like to do half and half and the mothers don't want to, or if that's vice versa?"

For most it's neither. It's just not a practical possibility.

[DebbieOfMaddox]

It wasn't all "I could never leave my kids, hes selfish asking, a woman makes all the decisions stuff him" -- that's a very selective reading. There was an awful lot of "I can see why she wants to stay off, and legally she can, but she shouldn't go back on what they agreed and clearly he wants to stay off with DC as well".

[kalidasa]

I took quite a short mat leave georgesdino and if we have a second child then yes, the plan is that DH and I would share it. I breastfed though and would probably do so again which does make switching roles in the first few months quite difficult. I know some women seem to make it work with expressing etc but I really thought expressing was ghastly - all the absolute worst bits of breastfeeding and none of the benefits so I wouldn't want to do that.

Interesting thread OP and I do know what you mean. I think you're right about the disempowerment that lies beneath the rhetoric about peculiar female authority at that stage. I was slightly better "tuned in" to DS in the early months, and perhaps am still fractionally so, but I had a lot more prior experience of small children than him via babysitting/relatives etc; I spent more time with DS at the very very beginning, in hospital, the nights while breastfeeding; and also - and I think this is crucial - girls and young women are intensely socialised to respond to small children, to learn at least the basics about their care, to be seen as "good with children" in a practical as well as emotional way. In all these respects I had a 'head start' and it would be surprising if I was not a bit more confident and accurate as a result. I don't believe it is anything more mysterious than that.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Debbie, I agree - well over 50% of posters on that thread thought the DW WBU.

"For most it's neither. It's just not a practical possibility"

Do you mean because of differential in earnings, Mart?

[Martorana]

Earnings. (For many families the smallest drop in earnings would be catastrophic)
Breast feeding.
Inflexibility of employers.
Actual inflexibility of jobs.

I could not, for example, have practically carried on with the job I had when I had my first child unless I was prepared use childcare for 14 hours a day. And if I could have found childcare that was flexible enough for me to suddenly say at 4.00 one afternoon that I wouldn't be home until midnight. And it was not a job that could have been done part time. My Dp worked more predictably, but was still out of the house for at least 12 hours a day, and would not have been able to go part time.

[squishysquirmy]

Society considers mothers to be more important to the care of infants than fathers - and I think this percieved importance could be misconstrued as power but in reality it is the opposite.

Motherhood (even just the ability of women to become mothers) is often used as an excuse to remove power from women: it is used to explain away differences in pay and employment opportunities and to remove the control women have over their bodies and health.

Georgesdino: I would happily share my maternity leave with my dh. When our DD was newborn he was actually a lot more confident around her than me, because he had experience of younger siblings whilst I had never seen a newborn before so I agree that it's a bit of a myth that women are automatically better with infants and children than men.
I think that a lot of couples would probably be put off sharing parental leave equally because of the attitudes of others: I think fathers are much more likely to be called lazy/non-committed for putting their children before their career, whilst mothers are called selfish if they put their career before their children.

[georgesdino]

People on this section might but usually women want to be with their children more.

[georgesdino]

And yeah squishysquirmy I know loads of brilliant men with children and loads of women that are awful. I totally agree with you there.

[georgesdino]

Sorry for many comments but not one person has mentioned to me its weird Im going back the next week. The doctor thinks we are both amazing and told us that last week. Everyone is more impressed and I think people would be surprised if they tried it on the responses they get.

[georgesdino]

My parents are both nearly 60, fil is 65 and all surviving grandparents are fine with it.(late 80s) Thry were all just ok thats great no fanfare from old people. Dh is quitting his job as maternity changes dont come in till april 3015 and my mum and dad just said good so makes even more of a way for my career.

[georgesdino]

Dh has got lots of you jammy bastard my dw/df would never let me do that so its gone down well in the all male workplace.

[Martorana]

That's fantastic, georgesdino- but you must agree that you have done something incredibly unusual. And the problem is that it's very easy to say that because one person has done it, anyone can.

[grimbletart]

Martorana: I wonder if, in some ways, society has gone backwards where childcare is concerned. I'm 70 and my DCs are in their 40s. My DH and I shared childcare when they were little, pretty much 50/50 as we both worked and, of course, there was no such thing as maternity leave then. No one batted an eyelid. Maybe maternity leave, while clearly a 'good thing' has actually pitched women back two or three decades, with the assumption that maternity leave is, by definition, for mothers.
I used to think 'lucky sods' about working mothers today getting leave (and getting paid for part of it). Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we were unusual, but quite a number of my friends had the same arrangements with their OHs.

[georgesdino]

I dont think your that unusual grimbletart my parents were the same and not much younger than you.

[Martorana]

Georgesdino- how many people do you know personally who have done what you have done?

[georgesdino]

Sahds? Quite a few and went off early as they outearn their partners and more career orientated. I think its really going to take off from April 2015. I have friends who are smarter than me who are waiting until then so annoying as dh has to leave a decent supervisory job for this.

[Martorana]

How many people do you know personally who are sah dads? How many people do you know personally where the woman has transferred her maternity leave to the man?

[georgesdino]

Sahds? God loads about 30 currently. A few have transferred the maternity but most just quit as at the moment there is no point in it as you can only take it from 20 weeks and you dont get paid after week 39. Its rare to transfer maternity as you cant really do it until April 2015 but I think its the greatest policy ever.

[georgesdino]

In case I sound like Miss popular I know them through work as I deal with children and families the dads arent all my actual frirnds.