Moments of power in women's lives...

[Martorana]

I am running a serious risk of being deleted for "thread about a thread" but I have been thinking a lot about a situation unfolding elsewhere on this site and I would love other's opinions from a feminist perspective. Basically, the position being held by the vast majority is that the mother should have absolute control over what happens/who holds/sees/ does anything with a new baby for a considerable period post birth. A couple of people even suggest that the father should have no say in any of this for the first 12 weeks. That there is no such thing as unreasonable behaviour in a pregnant/ post partum woman.

This has made me think about the points of power in women's lives. It seems to me that for many women, childbirth and post birth is one of the only times when they are allowed- even expected to put themselves first. In practically all other circumstances, they are expected to appease, to conciliate.

Obviously it's a good thing for women to have power whenever they can- but the complicating factor of this is that it's a power based on hormones and instinct. "They can't help feeling like that- it's the hormones. Let's appease her, she'll be better soon"

A bit like the characterization of any woman who is angry and not conciliatory as pre menstrual.

I am thinking as I write- does any of this make sense? Does anyone have any thoughts?

[JaneinReading]

1. Certainly the law used to ay if you killed your baby within the 1st year that was much less a crime than at other times - it was infanticide, you were more likely to be excused. Indeed the Romans allowed it - a kind of post birth abortion. They left the babies on hill sides if they were unwanted.
   

1. Most cultures give men total control over their families. They own in effect their women or did. It was not until the Victorian age we had the married women's property act and in those days if you divorced the man would always get the children. Women owned nothing. They were in effect owned by men. Men had all power always. Nowadays in the UK in most cultures here it is a bit more equal.
   

1. I think we are being asked if post birth women are at their most powerful. First of all giving birth is tremendously powerful - particularly if you get to control your own natural birth as I was lucky enough to do so. You created that life , bore it and birthed it. Wow. Well done. However once it is born I don't think there is massive power. In a sense unless women return to work quickly as I did or have wealth they have least power and most vulnerability after birth - their men can run off and./or fail to support them practically or in cash terms and the woman suddenly is unable to be free in the sense of so easily earning her own living as she needs to find expensive childcare or rely on her partner doing it. Arguably she has the least power in her life when she gives birth unless she's been financially savvy.

[kalidasa]

grimbletart actually laurabridges made just your point over on the 'high earners' thread (excruciating title but actually a really fascinating thread, I have learnt a lot). She has grown up children as well as teenagers so has seen a lot of changes in mat leave. I also think a long mat leave can cause problems for equality in a relationship because even if you fully intend to divide childcare and domestic duties equally once you are both back at work, if the woman has been doing much more for a whole year - and is as a result almost inevitably more competent at least in some aspects - it is hard to rebalance that. Shorter leavers probably do give you a better chance of dividing things more equally from early on. Obviously sharing the leave ought to be a way to balance things as well.

I think it is also true now that in some sectors/professions/contexts it can actually be quite hard to take a short maternity leave - you might feel frowned on or disapproved of. I didn't really feel that personally as most of my colleagues are older men and are less aware of these issues, but DH has commented on how almost everyone we meet socially will ask me if I'm "back at work yet" even though DS is now 15 months old and I've been back at work for nearly a year!

[georgesdino]

Martorana - They want to though as they just want to look after lots of babies. We are all going for huge families with dads doing all the care. Its good you get all the fun and none of the work ;)

[Stanislav]

Sorry if this is a bit garbled, I'm thinking as I type, but here goes:

A key issue I think is the extent to which the baby and mother are considered separate beings or entities and the point at which that happens during pregnancy and post-birth.

As a pregnant woman, I am encouraged to make changes to diet, lifestyle etc but cannot be forced to do so as it is a decision about my body (unless the behaviour is illegal e.g. taking drugs). Up to a certain point, I can decide to abort the foetus without needing the consent of either the father or the foetus (so to speak) as it is a decision about my body. So baby and I are one in the same, and I have authority over this "unit". If I am in a loving and mutually supportive relationship with the father I will listen to and value his thoughts and feelings, but I will have the final say.

(Relatively) suddenly and violently the baby is physically separated from the mother (great symbolism here with the father being invited to cut the cord). The mother has to begin a psychological process of separation from the child. In my personal experience (and I appreciate this is anecdotal, not based on any academic study and cannot hope to be applied universally) it took some time for this psychological separation to happen and it was a painful process. I was very upset, for example, about being rushed to wash and dress my second baby rather than having prolonged skin to skin contact.

A GP once said to me that in some cases, PND is like period of bereavement for the loss of the child you carried - as if the baby in the womb and the baby in the world are two separate beings. My mind boggled a bit at the time when he said that, but I can kind of see his point. Though perhaps in my case it was more about coming to terms with how my body and identity had changed so much and so frequently and the destabilising nature of that change.

Anyway, the point is, immediately post-birth I still considered my babies to be part of me and so any expression of "power" over what happened to them really felt like an extension of bodily autonomy.

[Martorana]

Oh, I thought you were talking about men who had actively made the choice to become SAHP- rather than being forced into it by economic circumstances. Yes, in the area where I live, there are many very disadvantaged families where whoever is not working takes on the childcare- mother, father, aunt, grandparent......That has always happened- but is not the same thing at all.

[georgesdino]

I think in working class areas girls think I will become a nurse, social worker, teacher etc which are all 'girls' jobs mainly, but boys are more like I dunno just work as a shop supervisor, or at the warehouse, or as a chef at the many hotels we have so then they arent bothered about careers. Its different the ones that do trades but I know so many couples (including myself) like the first instance.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

[georgesdino]

God know I live in a really pretty place but loads of pockets of deprivation. Some parts some of the top 5% in uk. Dads are usually in their 20s/early 30s. I think its mainly that girls try harder at school nothing deeper!

[Martorana]

30? Really? Wow. I have been a parent for 18 years, and involved in many parenting and children's groups an I don't think I have met 30 sah dads in all that time. You must live in very forward thinking, enlightened circles.........

Anyone else ?

[georgesdino]

In case I sound like Miss popular I know them through work as I deal with children and families the dads arent all my actual frirnds.

[georgesdino]

Sahds? God loads about 30 currently. A few have transferred the maternity but most just quit as at the moment there is no point in it as you can only take it from 20 weeks and you dont get paid after week 39. Its rare to transfer maternity as you cant really do it until April 2015 but I think its the greatest policy ever.

[Martorana]

How many people do you know personally who are sah dads? How many people do you know personally where the woman has transferred her maternity leave to the man?

[georgesdino]

Sahds? Quite a few and went off early as they outearn their partners and more career orientated. I think its really going to take off from April 2015. I have friends who are smarter than me who are waiting until then so annoying as dh has to leave a decent supervisory job for this.

[Martorana]

Georgesdino- how many people do you know personally who have done what you have done?

[georgesdino]

I dont think your that unusual grimbletart my parents were the same and not much younger than you.

[grimbletart]

Martorana: I wonder if, in some ways, society has gone backwards where childcare is concerned. I'm 70 and my DCs are in their 40s. My DH and I shared childcare when they were little, pretty much 50/50 as we both worked and, of course, there was no such thing as maternity leave then. No one batted an eyelid. Maybe maternity leave, while clearly a 'good thing' has actually pitched women back two or three decades, with the assumption that maternity leave is, by definition, for mothers.
I used to think 'lucky sods' about working mothers today getting leave (and getting paid for part of it). Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we were unusual, but quite a number of my friends had the same arrangements with their OHs.

[Martorana]

That's fantastic, georgesdino- but you must agree that you have done something incredibly unusual. And the problem is that it's very easy to say that because one person has done it, anyone can.

[georgesdino]

Dh has got lots of you jammy bastard my dw/df would never let me do that so its gone down well in the all male workplace.

[georgesdino]

My parents are both nearly 60, fil is 65 and all surviving grandparents are fine with it.(late 80s) Thry were all just ok thats great no fanfare from old people. Dh is quitting his job as maternity changes dont come in till april 3015 and my mum and dad just said good so makes even more of a way for my career.

[georgesdino]

Sorry for many comments but not one person has mentioned to me its weird Im going back the next week. The doctor thinks we are both amazing and told us that last week. Everyone is more impressed and I think people would be surprised if they tried it on the responses they get.

[georgesdino]

And yeah squishysquirmy I know loads of brilliant men with children and loads of women that are awful. I totally agree with you there.

[georgesdino]

People on this section might but usually women want to be with their children more.

[squishysquirmy]

Society considers mothers to be more important to the care of infants than fathers - and I think this percieved importance could be misconstrued as power but in reality it is the opposite.

Motherhood (even just the ability of women to become mothers) is often used as an excuse to remove power from women: it is used to explain away differences in pay and employment opportunities and to remove the control women have over their bodies and health.

Georgesdino: I would happily share my maternity leave with my dh. When our DD was newborn he was actually a lot more confident around her than me, because he had experience of younger siblings whilst I had never seen a newborn before so I agree that it's a bit of a myth that women are automatically better with infants and children than men.
I think that a lot of couples would probably be put off sharing parental leave equally because of the attitudes of others: I think fathers are much more likely to be called lazy/non-committed for putting their children before their career, whilst mothers are called selfish if they put their career before their children.