Overbearing tickling/rough play with children - feminism angle

[Twigletpiglet]

I was talking with my sister today about how annoying it is that my DH, her DH and my dad like to engage in slightly overbearing tickling and rough-ish play with the DC. Then I realised that pretty much every man I have observed with their DC/nieces/nephews engages in this kind of play. By which I mean, the kind of play where they rough-house with the DC until they are squealing and doing that slightly hysterical laughter that is very nearly tears.

I know that there's research showing that rough-ish play, more male-centred play, has an important part in children's development. But it has started me wondering why men often seem to play with children in a way that over-rides the child's comfort. It's a low level, but it seems that the men enjoy this kind of play and therefore keep doing it even though the child is clearly expressing that they have had enough and want it to stop. Why do they not do the rough play and then stop when the child has had enough, instead of persisting? Do the men just not notice the emotions being expressed by the child? If not, why don't they? Is it a continuum, with at one end a very loving man who thinks (unconsciously) that his enjoyment trumps that of the child, and at the other end of the continuum is a man who totally tramples on the feelings of others for the pursuit of his own gains (i.e. rape), because he doesn't consider them to matter.

I am absolutely not suggesting that my DH, DB, and all the supportive, essentially feminist men I know are rapists, but this mild over-riding of children's feelings and physical boundaries seems to be fairly consistent and now I think about it, a little bit weird. Perhaps it's just a gradual pushing of the boundaries that over time encourages children to be more resilient? I don't know.

[atthestrokeoftwelve]

I think some rough play can be good- it's nice to have a play "wrestle", to flex the muscles and have some fun physical contact- as long as it stays within the boundaries. Sometimes fathers and sons particulary grow out of cuddling each other and a little wrestle is a good way to stay physically connected.
Although my son (17) still gives me cuddles, we love a good wrestle in the kitchen and he exercises his growing physical strength. It can be harmless and a nice way of connecting.

[whatdoesittake48]

I agree that this can be problematic. in my experience - men do this to show their dominance. I had one boyfriend who would hold me down, tickle me, wrestle with me and generally show his strength. he also hit me, shouted at me, stopped me from leaving the room and made my life a misery. No other men in my life have been physically playful in that way.

A special word is a great idea - for that moment when it stops being fun...

[RhinestoneCowgirl]

My DS (7) and DD (5) both frequently request that I 'wrestle' with them, it's a kind of play that they really enjoy, and both DH & I use it as an opportunity to talk about consent (although we don't call it that). We talk about how wrestling is only fun if both people are enjoying it, that stop means stop, and if you think the other person isn't enjoying it, always check that they're happy to carry on.

I usually 'wrestle' for a short amount of time then tend to throw the bout and they both jump on top of me and we have a cuddle. They also understand that there are some times where I'm not in the mood for wrestling and that I'm able to say no too.

[Contemplates]

There is an article about new research showing Dad's bond with their children through rough and tumble. Apparently it releases the same hormone (oxytocin) that Mum's get when they breastfeed!
uncommonjohn.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/father-and-baby-bonding-not-quite-like-mombaby-bonding/

So play has got it's very important place, just needs appropriate boundaries that teach children their body belongs to them and they should be able to say no.

[Grennie]

Playfighting is fine. I loved it as a kid. But OP you are talking about men who do more than that and ignore the child's boundaries. I think it is about dominating and showing who is really in charge.

My brother and I used to playfight a lot with an "uncle" and he never did this. As a result he always felt totally safe.

[Grennie]

I don't think you need a special word. Simply no is fine. And if you can't play fight and tell if a child is still enjoying it or not, you shouldn't be play fighting at all.

[Longtalljosie]

Yes I have always felt like this. I was talking to a friend who has just this issue with her DS and FIL too and she was struggling to express why she disliked it so much and I said to her "it's a consent issue, isn't it?" and she said "exactly!". I think just because something has been accepted doesn't mean it has to be so forever.

With DD and tickling - when she was little (2ish) we'd tickle her and when she said "no!" we'd stop and grin at her and she'd sort of screw up her face and shout "yes!" and we'd tickle her again until she said "no" again. It was like she was seeing how much of it she could bear - but she was deciding to be tickled - which is the point I think.

[Hairylegs47]

I hate adults tickling children. The tickler is showing the child they - the adult - are the boss and can do exactly as they wish. Even as a child I hated tickling, rough housing was okay, but tickling makes me feel really uncomfortable.
I was playing with my GS, running around the sofa roaring at each other - he likes lions and he was a scary lion, I was a scary tiger - picked him up to eat him and felt uncomfortable as I don't want him to think it's ok for adults to 'force' themselves on to him.
Maybes I'm being too sensitive.

[Hairylegs47]

Probably outed myself now, I know DD1 is a MN.
Hi sweetie

[KerryKatonasKhakis]

Urgh I know exactly what you mean by 'gone too far'.

I had 9 uncles growing up and family gatherings were always ruined (for me) by their rough play. Things like running with me on their shoulders, swing me between them, tickling etc. I remember trying to hide, asking my mum to hide me but was told not to be daft, they were just being fun etc (classic message given to girls that encourages co-operative, passive behaviour). My dad would also do things like not put me down as soon I wanted to get off his shoulders etc.

Whether it's concious or not it just just reinforces the helplessness of the child and the dominance of the adult and in my experience I never had women make me uncomfortable in this way so it has to have had an affect on my interactions with men.

My DS is only a toddler and I'm trying to b really careful but I sometimes get a bit hurt when he won't cuddle me or sit with me (just toddler stuff!) and I have to remind myself not to 'restrain' him so I can have a snuggle. He needs to know that his right to not cuddle is more important than my desire to cuddle.

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

I don't like the special word idea, what if it's someone who doesn't know it and doesn't stop? No and stop are better IMO.

[Grennie]

The special word idea is based on the notion that children can be tickled, can say no or stop, and should be ignored. Children should be taught that saying no or stop in relation to someone touching them (obviously only when not necessary), should be listened to.

[OddFodd]

Yes absolutely Grennie. I find the idea of needing a special word quite sinister tbh.

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

Sinister and dangerous.

[BertieBottsJustGotMarried]

I think it's fine but boundaries NEED to be set. It's OK to tickle a child past the point where they can say stop, if when you stop they are saying "More more! Again!" etc. I suppose it is still problematic because you can get to that point once and they don't like it but are unable to say so. BUT generally speaking with a child you know well I think it's fine. DS loves this kind of play but is terrified of being held upside down/by one leg and one arm etc although lots of kids love this. I always let adults know when they're starting on this kind of play where DS' limits are.

[BrandNewIggi]

Oh ffs. The special word my ds and I have - which even his dad doesn't know or use - is part of our own games, he will run away shouting oh no no mummy is a monster no! So he would not get much fun at all if I refused to play with him whenever he shouted the word no. I am not suggesting this be used with others - that would be daft as would need to be "taught" to them. Sinister and dangerous in some other universe, perhaps.

[DontGiveAwayTheHomeworld]

Just wanted to bring up a point about this behaviour continuing into adulthood - DH tickles me, it's fun and I end up breathless and giggling. But he'll carry on even when I've told him to stop. He really does seem to have problems with boundaries. He'll do things like push me back onto the sofa when I stand up, or try to pull my jogging bottoms down when I walk past him, and no matter how much I clearly hate it, or how many times I tell him to stop, he just treats it all as a big joke.

It's strange, really. In all other ways he's the sweetest, most considerate man. But he's grown up with this idea that rough play is always fun, which makes me the bad guy when I tell him to piss off!

[legoplayingmumsunite]

There are advantages with good, respecting boundaries, roughhousing. As I said above, it's where boundaries stop being respected that there are problems. I don't ever remember being made to feel uncomfortable by older men in my family so am happy for DH to play about with the kids. They usually gang up on him and that's hilarious for everyone.

[SanityClause]

Enthusiastic consent.

Such a great concept! Thank you Joyful.

[Twigletpiglet]

I'm sure in my family it's not about dominance or abuse. The men involved (DB, DH, DF) aren't violent, intimidating, don't physically harm the children (or me or others!), and are vehemently anti-smacking. So it's different to the circumstances described by some posters where it happens in an atmosphere of dominance, which sounds terrible and very distressing indeed. I have asked DD before if, when we next visit DB, she doesn't want him to tickle her, and she's said she does as she likes it. I think in our situation there is sometimes a mild over-stepping of the boundaries in terms of delay between the child expressing dislike (although not necessarily saying no/stop) and the adult stopping/holding back on the rough play. I wonder if it's partly the case that the adults involved, large strong adult men, have very rarely been in situations where they feel physically intimidated by someone else and therefore it doesn't occur to them that is what might be felt by the child. I think if it occurs again though, I will remind them and talk to them about why boundaries are so important.

[MadBusLady]

It's not just men, I had a female babysitter a couple of times who did the tickling until I was nearly hysterical and running away from her and it was fucking horrible. Still remember the feelings of panic. I think I told my mum I didn't like her and she didn't babysit again but I don't think I told her why, because I suppose how do you articulate why something supposedly playful was actually horrible for you when you're 7?

[Mycatistoosexy]

Is rough play/tickling a male only thing? I do this with my DS all the time because he finds it hilarious. I can tell if he wants to stop by his physical and facial cues long before he needs to say no or stop.

[atthestrokeoftwelve]

I don't think it's just a male thing. My kids loved being "folded up to be posted"which would involve me play squashing them to make them "flat" - they loved it and would ask me to do it often
Even now I have play wrestles with my 17 year old son.

[Grennie]

Certainly not a male thing. I played with dolls and wore dresses as a kid, but loved rough play. Play fighting with an adult who stopped when I wanted them to, was my favourite game.