"Mumsnet hates men"

[AnnieLobeseder]

There's a Facebook page created by some school kids called "shut Mumsnet down cos they hate kids" or some such thing, which is harmless enough.

But they've posted this advert from F4J, which is rather more sinister.

I wasn't aware that it was mandatory to hate men to be a Mumsnetter. I shall have to inform DH at once that he is to leave home and never see the DDs again.

They're rather sad and scary aren't they?

[nickymanchester]

So you're saying that you assumed you were being judged more harshly for your I'm alright Jack view because you were a women than a man with an I'm alright Jack view would have been? That we thought you should be held to a higher standard of behaviour because you are a woman

Very much, yes.

I'm really sorry, I din't mean to hijack this thread but, if it's any consolation, it has given me a bit more confidence to air my views in this arena in the future.

I hope you don't think that I was trying to shout down either you or LDR; that certainly wasn't my intention.

[AskBasil]

I think that in many cases, by the time someone posts on MN about their partner, they are at the end of their tether.

As Portofino says, you don't get people posting about niggly little things that don't matter very much. Or indeed, daily threads telling us all how considerate, loving and generally overall marvellous the poster's DH is. AFAIA you don't even get many women posting in the relationship section who are being horrible princesses wanting unreasonable standards of cossetting from their husbands and if you did, no doubt they'd get short shrift. Mostly, you get people who have been minimising terrible behaviour for years, putting out feelers to see if their unhappiness about it is an over-reaction. And unlike in RL or on most other spaces on the net, MN will validate their suspicions that this is not OK and let them know they don't have to put up with it.

Which is why abusive men hate this place so much. Because their behaviours are named here as the abuses they are. TBH I would rather an excess of LTB however problematic, than the excess you get everywhere else: STFU, stop whingeing, all men are like that, lower your expectations, stop being a princess, etc. There's plenty of that on the relationships boards as well, but there isn't nearly as much complaining about it as LTB. Now why would that be then?

[CailinDana]

Nicky LRD specified women as a class because that's what feminism looks at.

Equally on a site dedicated to non-white people, if a black person came on a thread about racism and said "I don't feel subject to racism" the response would be "that's great but this isn't about you personally. You, as a black person, don't experience racism but as a group.black people do experience noticeable racist barriers in their lives and that's what we're discussing."

One person not experiencing racism does not mean racism doesn't exist.

Similarly, you don't personally feel oppressed by a patriarchal society. That however does not mean it doesn't exist.

Would you agree that generally in the world as a whole women experience problems and barriers that are specifically due to the fact that they are women?

[Dervel]

I don't get the feminist perspective as a systematic approach of analysing society (inasmuch as I cannot do it myself so far), but I can very much get behind the crucial issues it raises, including but not limited to:

Violence and sexual violence towards women.
Women being more represented in low paying careers.
Women being less represented in high paying careers.
Childrearing being seen as both low status grunt work AND it defaulting to women's work.
Domestic chores being seen as women's work.

Problem is being a man there is one challenge engaging with feminism: I have seen on here how a lot of women describe their feminist epiphanies as like the scales falling from their eyes or the red/blue pill matrix analogy (as I think has appeared on this very thread). Which is all very well if you wake up as a member of the heroic oppressed humans, but quite a different proposition if you wake up to the realisation you are actually one of the tyrannical controlling robots.

FWIW I think a lot of men may be unconsciously aware of this, and it is easier to try to find fault with the philosophy, than go into the rabbit hole and the rather embarrassing self analysis that goes with it. In essence the perception of man hating feminists is more of a fear based response as opposed to a rational analysis. The "taking things personally" when people raise patriarchy is more an avoidance of self examination, and is betrayed by a cartoonish misunderstood comprehension of what feminism is.

Looking back at my own behaviour in the past it is not without some cringeworthy and less than stellar moments.

For me the equation is simple whilst I may not 'get' feminism as a thought process yet, I cannot argue with the majority of the issues it raises. Much like how I do not understand how the internal combustion engine works, but I can see and enjoy the benefits of using a car. I hope I made sense.

[CailinDana]

Very well said Dervel.

[CailinDana]

Incidentally Dervel it can be just as hard for women when the scales fall because women perpetuate misogyny too, maybe not consciously, but often more effectively than men. In particular mothers often have to face the fact that they have trained their own daughters to think of themselves as less than men. That's pretty guilt-making.

I don't know if it helps any but I and I would say the majority of feminists believe that men are just as much victims of patriarchy as women. It can be embarrassing to look back on naive views but that's true of anyone, women included. Feminists in general have no interest in making decent men feel bad for their social upbringing. A willingness to examine attitudes as you have done is basically the goal. So in my eyes you would be a feminist even if you aren't in your own eyes.

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

Dervel said '...the perception of man hating feminists is more of a fear based response as opposed to a rational analysis.' I can see what you are getting at, though as with any political movement, a few loose cannons can always be found to undo the sensible views of the majority.

And yet the opposing view, that men (okay, okay as a class) hate women seems to hold more sway in feminist thinking. I think it's very hard to dismiss one whilst supporting the other.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I grew up in a village where there was precisely one black family, who happened to include my big brother's best mate. I did not have a huge chance to be aware of racism, though I suspect his mum had it differently.

When I did have my 'oh, shit!' moment, like the feminist epiphanies described above, I didn't think 'argh, I am one of the evil people'. I don't get why you would think that? Or why anyone would?

Is this really common?

Don't you just think 'shit, that must be horrible for them?' or maybe 'how come I didn't notice before?'

Obviously, no-one can help feeling how they feel and I'm not suggesting it is a 'wrong' reaction to feminism. But it is a surprising one, to me. And I think it does deserve to be analysed. It is bizarre to me.

I mean, even my SIL, who is German and was brought up with the whole enormously breast-beating German tradition of Holocaust guilt does not conclude 'shit, I'm evil'.

[happytalk13]

LRD - I think you hit it on the head that people react differently. People I know personally who are raving racists automatically start crowing and sneering if they are faced with anything that challenges their default attitude because they in their minds are good upstanding people and can't possibly be racist. the mere hint of challenge and they are up in arms, pointing fingers, getting aggressive and shutting you down.

Some people just can't stand the thought that they are less than perfect.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Mmm, that's true, I do know people who're racist who think the whole thing is a conspiracy to accuse them, specifically, of being white supremacists.

But I was thinking about most people who are, I guess, somewhere between 'privileged and unaware of it' and 'privileged and sometimes perpetuating that privilege' (which I am with race, which most of us probably are with something). In that situation, I don't think it is actually normal to respond 'oh, no, this means I am evil!' when you suddenly realize there's structural prejudice in the world.

Perhaps I've met a very odd group of people.

[happytalk13]

Or perhaps you've been fortunate to be around people who are reasonable folks and feel comfortable exploring and considering things that have been a part of their normal every day life that they haven't consciously considered may be wrong. I'd like to hang out with your group of people. My experience is that the majority of people I've met cannot be challenged at all - to do so is to be rude and aggressive and how dare you challenge their moral/religious/parental/gender/class/ beliefs.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

YY, that's very likely.

Or perhaps I just walk around with my head in the sand.

A lot of these people aren't particularly lovely, un-biased types. I've a relative in mind who is constantly coming out with racist/sexist/disablist etc. comments ... but he doesn't recognize them as such and is still shocked at the concepts of racism/sexism/disablism.

I'm not sure one is better than the other when I think about it!

[nickymanchester]

CailinDana

Would you agree that generally in the world as a whole women experience problems and barriers that are specifically due to the fact that they are women

Personally, I feel that there is too much variance throughout the world for you to make that sweeping statement.

If we are talking about the western developed world then I would disagree with you.

However, if you had asked me this question a 100 years ago - or even 40 years ago - I would have agreed with you totally; first and second wave feminism have totally changed what our lives are like and what we can achieve. I have also lived in a few different countries and know that there are large parts of the world where these are still very real issues.

But, here and now, in a western European country in 2014, yes I would disagree with you. There are obviously some - ''many'' others might say - men that discriminate against women based purely on gender but to say that ''men as a class'' or the ''patriarchy'' place barriers in front of ''women as a class'' in the UK today is something that I genuinely do not recognise.

[happytalk13]

It seems completely idiotic that men can't have equal time off for "maternity" leave.

[happytalk13]

LRD - I doubt you have your head in the sand - your posts always come across as having your ear to the ground.

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

Buffy, doesn't that list ignore the option that the ideas are (perceived as ) wrong? Not that someone doesn't understand - but that they disagree.

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

No apology required. Isn't what nicky is referring to kyriarchy rather than patriarchy? Are some feminists now looking to this as a more accurate explanation of society, rather than the binary patriarchy? I thought I read it on here somewhere.

[nickymanchester]

Buffy

Ok, I read that thread and there was absolutely nothing there about the nhs discriminating against women. Quite the opposite, if anything.

Women were going into the profession with the clear knowledge and intention that they could successfully manage having both a career and a family. The complaints in the article were about the cost of this, nothing was about them being discriminated against or saying that it shouldn't be allowed.

I would genuinely be interested to see any reputable study that shows ''women as a class'' are discriminated against because of this.

Yes, employers are always aware of the extra costs although I would suggest that they are not quite as high as you might think. However, to extend from this to saying that this is a barrier to employment for ''women as a class'' I really can not see. Of course there are always going to be individual cases where this happens, but you did say to me above to differentiate between the individual and the class.

Please note that I am not saying that discrimination does not happen in individual cases. For example, I know one woman whose position was made conveniently redundant three days after she told her employer that she was pregnant. However, one can't simply extrapolate from a few individual anecdotes to talking about ''women as a class'' so, as I said above, I would be genuinely interested to know what evidence exists other than similar anecdotes.

[nickymanchester]

Isn't what nicky is referring to kyriarchy rather than patriarchy

I've never heard of that word before so I just did some quick searching. Yes, from my admittedly very quick skim of what I found I think I would be a lot more accepting of a term like kyriarchy rather than patriarchy