Why shouldn't women LTB?

[SunshineSuperNova]

This thread is prompted by two recent threads about the Relationship section.

It seems to me that 'society' is threatened by the thought that a woman might, of her own volition, up and leave a bad relationship. In my case, it was suggested I LTB because my DH is an alcoholic. Perfectly reasonable: but other commenters suggested I was 'selfish' and 'not taking my vows seriously' and that I should support him because he has a disease.

It seems that the 'grand narrative' is that the woman should stay with her man no matter how shitty the relationship. And this is reinforced by, for example, mainstream films. Second marriages are alway shown as flimsy, throwaway and meaningless, and the ex-wife pines after the husband she cruelly threw away. Two recent-ish offenders are 'Liar, Liar' and 'Die Hard'.

What do you think? Why is the default advice for women to stay and hold everything together, no matter how crap her man is treating her?

I'm sorry, I haven't entirely taken in this thread, because it is late, but I want to post so I remember to read it tomorrow.

I just wanted to say - I think it is hugely important that it should be acceptable to leave someone without being judged for the reason. As I don't have kids obviously some of that discussion goes over my head, but it strikes me how many women will talk about a partner they've really only been with for a short while, with no ties like children, and will still feel they must justify their actions in leaving.

I do think (tentatively and ignorantly, perhaps) that children respond to what is expected. A divorce is more traumatic for children in a society where divorce is rare. I am obviously not advocating mass divorce just to make children of divorced parents feel ok, but I do think that to some extent, it helps to say 'this is normal, this is ok'.

SS I don't think justification is needed to anyone except yourself.

People should be honest with themselves, even if they choose not to be to other people.

It's problematic for me to say that a person cannot leave without a good reason. It could encourage abusive behaviour where the leavee demands justification from the leaver and there is an argument about whether the reason is good enough. Lots of people are not great at articulating their unhappiness or just don't want to. You shouldn't expect people to advocate their way out of a relationship. I don't think that's the right way to go at all.

Also a lot of people can't actually articulate their reasons until years later.

Sometimes people act instinctively.

There is enough pressure on women from a male centred society to keep servicing men in crap relationships

The very last thing needed by someone knowing they have to go for their own mental health is the thought that they would be judged. Some abusers are very plausible to the outside world, with a very carefully cultivated Nice Guy persona. If you cannot imagine this, and bang on about needing a "good reason" to leave a relationship, you are part of the problem, tbh.

Yes Flora, that is what worries me too. I also think insisting on justification on leaving a relationship would benefit men and disadvantage women because we live in the imbalance of a patriarchy.

Basil, the first reason I gave was the DCs estrangement from a parent, the second reason i gave was the financial repercussions (I happen to know a lot about this aspect), the third reason i gave was the wider fallout regarding other relationships.

I believe that unhappy parents have a duty to explore other ways of being happy and should only leave if the work they put in is to no avail. I am that you think I was suggesting bringing up DCs in a miserable, damaging home.

X-post there with AF

I think you're over-stating the risk of estrangement from a parent Dione, most kids whose parents don't live together now see both parents regularly.

....and how long is reasonable to keep trying to "explore" these other options ?

child is a baby, primary, high school age ?

My DBIL's xW left him for no "good reason" other than that she was not happy. He has the DCs. She has never given a reason for leaving him except she doesn't want to be married to him any more, as far as I know she did not explore other ways of being happy or put any more "work" into it. There are lots of things that are tough on their DCs post split but at least their DS no longer screams "I'm going to kill myself" when he gets in an argument with other kids.

But the thing is Dione everyone thinks that.

Everyone thinks women parents have a duty to explore ways of being happy before they decide to leave.

I'm trying to get a sense of what this exploration would consist of, how long for, in what conditions etc.

For example, I've lost count of the women who "explored" alternative ways of being happy for years, while the men they lived with were content with the way things were, so didn't do any work. So all that exploration, for all that time, was a waste of time and there was no point because one person can't fix a relationship.

Argh my post got eaten

in sum

To the Question why shouldn't women LTB, I answer When what they gain is minimal compared to what their children lose.
Everyone must judge that for themselves, there are too many variables for anyone elses' viewpoints to carry any weight.
Facing judgement is just another hurdle - none of this is easy.

I thnk what's getting the harder-of-thinking so agitated about the encouragement women get to LTB on MN is a failure to understand that some faults in a relationship are unfixable and actually really obvious, so it's better to end the relationship quickly rather than waste time and energy and money 'working on it.'
If there are clear indications that a man considers himself the person in the relationship and the woman a 'woman' ie something between a cooker and a puppy, then no matter what she does, he is never going to perceive her as fully human or give up on the idea that he is entitled to control her. Unfortunately, this sometimes only becomes clear once DC have arrived.

But how do you measure before you split up what the children could lose after you split up?

I feel very uncomfortable at the suggestion that women should sacrifice their happiness and possible well being on an assumption that being in a relationship with their father will be more beneficial to children than not being in a relationship.

Again that seems very heteronormative.

Chaos, you say consume. I say sap. It doesn't mean that I consider my DS a parasite.. And I know just how sapping it was. Particularly since I was recovering from the breakdown of my family. I was the woman you say I am vilifying.

I took my DS and 3bags of our stuff and I left his dad. And my home. And my job, friend's, neighbors and town. I had nothing but the remnants of that month's wages and my son. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Best thing I ever did. It is also the best thing for a lot of people.

However I am aware that not all relationships are bad as mine was. I am also aware that the vast majority of men are better than my ExH. So where there exists respect work can be done to improve the relationship and should be done before leaving is considered.

I also think it's wrong.

I don't see why anyone should expect good outcomes for children if they grow up in a home where one or both of the parents have an underlying unhappiness.

scallops - I am talking not in the context of abuse of any kind. I am coming at this from a few comments above - I miss being able to go out and shag randoms, oh the single life, kind of thing - yeah, I do absolutely think that people, mothers and fathers should suck it up for a few years. But what I think doesn't matter. Only the people involved really know what's going on, and me and my opinions can just fuck off basically. And quite properly.

It's not just societal expectations that hurt kids being caught up in a seperation, it's the realities of missing the daily unobtrusive presense of a loved and loving parent, usually dad (no abuse, remember), some kids don't settle to the two homes thing, even the most benign of divorces cause upset.

Basil, you are absolutely right. That is why I believe that the parents should address that unhappiness and see what can be done about it.

Oh and apologies. I've just reread the thread and realized that my posts may have been a bit finance heavy, but I am well aware of the reasons why the PWC is financially worse off.

But, next week, for the first time in 51/2 years, I am getting my first wage. It's crap, but it's mine and I am buying me some new knickers before I spend a penny on groceries, bills or DS.

Proper ones from M&S.

Good for you, Dione. Onward and upward