Why shouldn't women LTB?

[SunshineSuperNova]

This thread is prompted by two recent threads about the Relationship section.

It seems to me that 'society' is threatened by the thought that a woman might, of her own volition, up and leave a bad relationship. In my case, it was suggested I LTB because my DH is an alcoholic. Perfectly reasonable: but other commenters suggested I was 'selfish' and 'not taking my vows seriously' and that I should support him because he has a disease.

It seems that the 'grand narrative' is that the woman should stay with her man no matter how shitty the relationship. And this is reinforced by, for example, mainstream films. Second marriages are alway shown as flimsy, throwaway and meaningless, and the ex-wife pines after the husband she cruelly threw away. Two recent-ish offenders are 'Liar, Liar' and 'Die Hard'.

What do you think? Why is the default advice for women to stay and hold everything together, no matter how crap her man is treating her?

[BasilBabyEater]

Because to be fair to them, I suspect people like your flighty ex probably don't recognise what they want - because there's no space in our society to want that and be taken seriously as a person and consider yourself seriously as a person. So they kid themselves about what they want and end up hurting people.

[BasilBabyEater]

Clearly not quite as expensive as being the RP Kim, otherwise the stats would be different.

[GetStuffezd]

"...to leave without any reason isn't fair to the other person."
Yes it is. Anyone should be able to leave a relationship at any time. It is possible to leave a relationship while showing respect towards the other person but nobody should ever be in a relationship they don't want to be in.

Furthermore, I've been the person who senses their partner isn't happy but knows they feel too guilty to end it. He knew I was starting to think long term about us. I sensed his pulling away and I went into overdrive - "must work on relationship, must make him love me more" and it was horrific. He got the benefits of a desperate woman trying to please him and I got a disinterested wanker pushing his luck.

I wish he'd just told me he didn't want to be with me any more.

[MadBusLady]

The advice will be that's fine it's his decision?

That is in fact the exact advice being given on a thread I was on tonight where the bloke has basically ended it. Obviously it's not fine for the poster, she's upset. But she is being advised to let him go and concentrate on herself.

[reggiebean]

Basil That's a very valid point actually, I hadn't considered it that way. I would hope that someone knowing me personally wouldn't be afraid to be honest with me, regardless of the situation, but I can see how if you're constantly used to stuffing your feelings, it would be difficult to be honest with yourself and others. Which is a shame, really, but a different topic altogether I think

[YoniBottsBumgina]

Of course. And this is all tied into relationships (and especially marriage) being seen as a "must have" - it all goes round in circles! The shame/pity about being single as though it's an awful thing. The assumption that single people must want a relationship. The demonisation of casual sex and of casual sex relationships (which thankfully is/are becoming more acceptable now) and, as in this thread, the assumption that you should stay in a relationship you already have by default, and only leave if something is wrong, rather than the relationship being something which should add something to your life.

I've said this before on here but when I posted about my ex, must have been 4 or 5 years ago now(!) people asked me what I always think of as a very "mumsnet" question - "Why are you with him?" (More commonly phrased, these days, as "What do you get out of this relationship now?") I was really taken aback because nobody had ever asked me why I was in a relationship before. I hadn't ever stopped to ask myself the question. My reply was something along the lines of "Why shouldn't we be together? We love each other." -- now, if I was to look back, I don't think that even the definition of "love" would apply, because the relationship I had with my ex was never love as I can see it now. So the main part of my reply, really was "Why shouldn't we be together?" I was very much in that headspace of, you have the relationship, nothing particularly bad is happening in it, so you stay. That's the status quo. That was probably our whole relationship, and we did the normal things as happen in a relationship, like moving in together, getting engaged, having a child, because that's just what people do. I wonder how many people go through life like this, just moving onto the next stage because that's what happens next, never questioning why they are with that person. I would never do that now. In fact I don't need to - the question about moving in, getting engaged/married, having a child, they are all happening as and when it seems logical for that thing to happen, not because "that's what you do next".

I hope this doesn't come across as attacking or bitchy, because it's not meant to. I am just astounded looking back that I did things for those reasons and not these reasons. I don't have to question why I'm in a relationship any more, because I am reminded very regularly why I love DP and how much I appreciate having him around, in my life and in my home and in my family. I never had that before, I suspect many people don't have that, and I think that is very sad.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

The NRP is often better off because they do not have the money, energy and time sapping children. Hence they are referred to as NRP.

The PWC, regardless of gender, often ends up worse off because they have children. What do you suggest can be done about this Basil?

Stop punishing women with poverty for the petty treason of leaving their husband.
this is one of the most ridiculous things I have read. Regardless of who leaves, regardless of gender, it is the PWC who doesn't have the time and energy of the NRP to devote to their career. My aunt left my uncle. He is the PWC. No one punished either of them. He is poorer because he has the children.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

My reply was xposted with lots of others. The "of course" was in reply to Reggie's post about not getting into a relationship if you can't be honest about how emotionally invested you are likely to be.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

Although I might add that even though casual sex relationships are more common/accepted now, there is still a proportion of (usually men, TBH) who will enter into a relationship promising emotional commitment whereas actually, for them, it's just sex. Because there is this prevailing view that women want commitment and men want sex. Actually, no, some people, of both genders, want just sex. And some people of both genders want a relationship. It shouldn't be hard to find someone with the same agenda to your own!

[BasilBabyEater]

Then he is a statistical anomoly Dione.

Because male PWC's are more likely to be better off than the average PWC. (Most of whom are female.)

But I think this is a bit of a sideline, unless you're arguing that people should stay together because otherwise they'll be poorer. That's a valid argument but a bleak one, I think. I know that I'm probably poorer now than I would have been if I'd stayed with XP, but as YoniBotts describes, my relationship would have been pretty shit and my DC's dysfunctional and unhappy. I don't blame someone for staying in order to avoid poverty, but my god I don't envy them either.

[kickassangel]

One of the reasons that it is hard to make the decision to split is just how much work and energy is required.

And not just the practical stuff. Telling your extended family, explaining to friends/colleagues. Dealing with the emotional upset of the kids.

These are not small things to navigate. Add to that the exertion needed to move house, divide your belongings, work out the finances etc.

tbh, the idea of moving house (again!) just fills me with dread. I've done it enough and just want to let life move along without any major upheaval. So, he may be a bit of a bastard, but not quite enough to make me leave him.

[SDhopeful]

So, he may be a bit of a bastard, but not quite enough to make me leave him. Yes, very well put - I think there are many of us who understand exactly what you mean.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

I definitely hear you kickassangel. It seems like a huge thing when you think of it in terms of that. But if you try not to think about the actual split and think more about life in general with/without him, then it makes it easier to make the decision without worrying about all of that, which, yes, will be hard work and painful and might go on for a significant period, but is nothing compared to the rest of your life, his life, the children's lives.

Lots of big decisions in life cause short term upheaval, for example, changing career, moving country, and although these are a factor we don't allow them to become the main decision making factor about the whole thing. Planning a wedding is stressful and expensive but we do it because of the reward of the big day and, of course, the promise of a life together.

It is only because we perceive a divorce or separation to be a negative overall thing that the hump of the short term upheaval becomes insurmountable. It makes us question whether it is the right thing. If you don't focus on the short term - which is the right thing?

[scallopsrgreat]

I completely agree kickass. I also think it is underestimated how much continuing energy is required once the relationship has ended. Especially if your ex-partner is abusive and, typically, won't take no for an answer or make it their life work to make your life as difficult as possible.

[BasilBabyEater]

Yes, sometimes women make the calculation that it's better to have the bastard inside pissing out (most of the time) than outside pissing in.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Basil, 6 years post split and he is financially worse off than the NRP and certainly worse off than he was before the split when he was able to earn a fairly good salary (the split meant that he had to give up work). That is the norm for PWCs.

Kim, I agree that separation is extremely expensive for all involved in a relation breakdown.. But this is not and should not be seen as the woman's punishment. As you say, it is just what happens on a practical level.

[BasilBabyEater]

Yes it's the norm for PWC's. Your uncle's situation reflects that of the average PWC.

But statistically, male PWC's are likely to be better off than the average PWC. Your uncle notwithstanding, that is the stats tell us.

What is your point Diane? That people should stay together in order to maintain their standard of living?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Basil, my point is that simply deciding that one is not happy should not be enough to destroy a family. Life and relationships need work and LTB should only be done after all other avenues to address the unhappiness have been explored. The consequences are too serious and repercussions too widespread for either parent to just decide that they are unhappy and leave.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

There is a difference between being unhappy in a relationship and being unhappy in general - I guess what you're saying is someone who is unhappy in general should not be quick to blame it on the relationship and end it as a way to solve this unhappiness, however, if they are unhappy in the relationship, then that is a reason to end it.

I'm not sure if we disagree here or not! If someone is unhappy with something unrelated to the relationship, or just with life in general, then ending the relationship won't help anyway. And they were a bit hasty with doing that. But I don't think that is the case in the vast majority of situations where one person leaves because they are unhappy.

[BasilBabyEater]

But LTB is an option only taken when all other avenues have been explored.

I don't really understand what the argument is.

Other people seem to know loads of couples who they assume split up over nothing.

I always assume that there was a reason for it, which I don't know about and which is none of my business.

Mental like that, me.

[Yougotbale]

I think anyone is entitled to post, within the rules, what they like. i don't think it matters what you are told to do. I think women and men will LTB, if they want. i think any person can leave a relationship when they want. I wish this would cotton on with religions too.

[CailinDana]

Absolutely no one in the world has ever left a relationship for no reason simply because it's just not possible. Everyone does every single thing in their life for a reason. What was actually meant I think is "for no good reason" and then the issue is what counts as a "good" reason or even as a "good enough" reason.