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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Intersectionality

62 replies

dashoflime · 18/08/2013 19:36

I'm looking for help to get my ideas straight on this. I am really not a fan of intersectionality. I agree that feminism alone cannot/did not provide an analysis for all oppression's or all women's experiances. However, I don't think an attempt to broaden feminism to encompass all things is the way forward. Far better to situate feminism within a broader political analysis; eg: socialism.
Apparently, I only think this because I'm white and have been challenged to find one black feminist theorist who would agree with me.
Can anyone help me out here. I'm willing to revise my opinions if it turns out I'm in the wrong

OP posts:
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comixminx · 22/08/2013 17:32

My original point wasn't about the show itself (which as I say, I haven't seen) but about the discussion around it, where as far as I could see there was a lot of dismissiveness by white feminists of the points made by women of colour. If as you think the issue is rather that the show has been attacked preferentially because it is representative of a different minority ethnic group then that's a construction I haven't heard before; I'm not trying to dismiss it because I haven't heard it before, but that's not what I was taking from it.

You were talking about POC as if it was a jargon term, by saying it was to do with the census. I don't think the view that only white people can be racist is in any way a majority view in social justice circles, or even a substantial minority view.

I can't add more to this discussion right now because I'll be away from keyboard but I will be interested to see any further input from anyone this evening.

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comixminx · 22/08/2013 18:19

Or to put it more succinctly before I properly go AFK: I am prepared to believe that feminism has issues of anti-semitism. I am prepared to believe I am not immune to it either, and to try to learn from what people tell me. But surely these discussions we're having now are precisely intersectional ones.

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FreyaSnow · 22/08/2013 19:44

A large number of the people complaining that Girls is racist are white, so the idea that it is the concerns of POC are the ones being dismissed is speculative. The fact that you personally are claiming not to hold anti-semitic views is simply how racism and other forms of institutionalised oppression works. Most people claim they are not racist, sexist etc etc and they just randomly happen to be talking about rapes carried out by black men rather than white men, or just randomly happen to be talking about the sexism in the clothing of South Asian women rather than white British women, or just randomly happen to be talking about a gay child sex offender rather than a straight one. And you and a whole load of other feminists just randomly happen to be talking about Jewish women rather than the dominant white group.

As for you not believing that social justice people believe POC can't be racist in the USA, have you tried googling 'can people of color be racist?' There are many, many links explaining that they can't be, including university anti-racist training material.

The definition in the US census isn't jargon. It reflects the beliefs and attitudes of people in the US as to what the major ethnic groups are and which groups are and are not white, although it remains very contentious which is why I prefer the European system based on an international understanding.

I think that the issue here is that you don't have much knowledge of the US context you are discussing and that you are expanding intersectionality to lay claim to all theories around racial discrimination, xenophobia and cultural imperialism. There is nothing wrong with intersectionality as a concept; there is a problem if people are going to have a really poor understanding of all other theories and replace it with just jumping in and going, 'everybody should just be more intersectional.'

The whole idea that international human rights around race which the whole international community came together to decide is now some trivial thing that allows you to keep claiming we're all talking about intersectionality really is staggeringly... Actually, I have no words. It's just staggering.

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KRITIQ · 22/08/2013 21:52

I've been rather busy but do hope to return to this thread. I do plan to when I get a minute, but just a couple of quick points.

People of Colour can only be racist if you agree that women can be sexist. In other words, even if People of Colour dislike or are bigoted towards people of other ethnic backgrounds, they do not hold the privilege that white people do in our white supremacist society. That means their attitudes and actions are not backed up by the dominant history, culture, institutions, laws, traditions, etc. in the way that systemic racism against People of Colour is. Same goes that women can dislike or be bigoted towards men, but they lack male privilege or the sanction of history, culture, etc., so the impact is likewise far, far less.

People of Colour is a term that originated in the US, but particularly through increased use within global social media, it's become a common term chosen by People of Colour, including in the UK. There is no point in the discussion getting derailed on this issue any more than one where someone goes on about not liking the term "feminist" and that "humanist" or some such would be better.

I've never seen the Lena Dunham programme but I did see the discussions afterwards in social media to which comixminx refers. While anti-semitism is a thing and yes Jewish women experience intersectional oppression due to anti-seminism and sexism, but if white, also experience racial privilege that Jewish Women of Colour and non-Jewish Women of Colour do not enjoy. However, the issue here wasn't about the programme in the context of oppression of white Jewish women - it was the discussion that followed, particularly in social media.

This involved "popular" feminists like Dunham, Caitlin Moran and later on Helen Lewis (who maybe calls herself a socialist feminist? *) and other white feminists dismissing concerns raised by Women of Colour and their allies about their erasure and racist stereotyping in popular culture, the media, etc.

  • I say Lewis "may" be a socialist feminist from her comments during the discussion on the marginalisation of Women of Colour within feminism (following the #solidarityisforwhitewomen Twitter discussions,) Channel 4 News where she and Bonnie Greer were guests last week. Lewis tried to derail the discussion by saying it was an issue of class, not race (to which Greer tactfully argued that it was both.)

    Lewis became embroiled in yet another argument on Twitter yesterday by posting a spiteful tweet criticising this blog on Sexual Normativity in Food Writing (of all things) by Flavia Dzodan, (a Woman of Colour and proponent of Intersectional Feminism), then whining that she was being "attacked" by those who didn't like the tweet, compiled all the tweets into a blogpost (which didn't paint her in a good light at all), then flounced off Twitter. I see just now she's issued a feeble "apology" for the "hurt caused."

    Just a wee final point, comixminx, you said, "It's seeing that sometimes in battling sexism we can be being massively racist at the same time without even noticing it." That is definitely true. But, in some of these discussions, where a person just gets more and more defensive, digs themselves in deeper and deeper, if the "exercise of racial privilege" at least isn't actually an accident.

    Will pop back when I can. Ta!
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KRITIQ · 22/08/2013 22:05

Sorry - last but one paragraph above should read " . . . in deeper and deeper, I'm not sure if the "exercise of racial privilege" at least . . ."

Finally, I have no idea to what degree comixminx understands the US context, but I'm a US and UK dual national, so I have a pretty good understanding as it goes.

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FreyaSnow · 22/08/2013 22:27

Kritiq, I entirely agree with your post as an explanation of what the position of people in social justice movements in the US is. I think there are issues with that position that some POC are finding damaging in the US, but other parts of it make sense in a US context.

The issue I have with it being used as the explanation of racism and oppression is that it doesn't readily transfer to other countries. It is highly problematic in countries where neither the ethnic minorities experiencing racism nor the dominant group are white. Their experience of racism is not one of white supremacy. It is also problematic in various European countries which have a dual experience of recent serious human rights abuses against minorities that are currently considered white and those who aren't.

There is a further problem that the US has a dominant global position in political, economic and cultural terms. One of the reasons we are talking about US tv shows is because they make up a very high proportion of global media sales. Large proportions of populations of various countries are opposed to US (and sometimes British) foreign policy and imperialism. To them it is a question of US values and actions. People who are concerned about drones in their countries are not generally sitting around going, oh, the issue is just with those white people killing people, only those 59% of the US who are not POC, white Middle Eastern or white Hispanic. Their issue is with the whole of the USA.

So while I think intersectionality is really useful for understanding different experiences within one country or region, the rest is better understood through ideas about contemporary colonialism, imperialism, international relations and international laws about racial discrimination which were globally constructed, not just decided by some activists and academics in the West. The danger is that with the global dominance of the US, other people's understanding of what racism is and how they experience it is silenced and development of ideas that are useful in other contexts are thwarted, which is what I see happening in internet discussions elsewhere. People from other countries (particularly those which don't have large white populations) are shouted down and told social justice ideas around intersectionality, cultural appropriation and so on that are dominant in the West are the only valid ways of dealing with racism.

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vesuvia · 22/08/2013 22:39

KRITIQ wrote - "People of Colour dislike or are bigoted towards people of other ethnic backgrounds, they do not hold the privilege that white people do in our white supremacist society."

I understand the idea that only men can be sexist: men as a class oppress women as a class. Men are at the top of the sex hierarchy everywhere. Oppression is in one direction everywhere.

I understand the idea that white people can be racist to people of other ethnic groups where white people are at the top of the racial hierarchy in a particular society.

What I don't yet understand is: can other ethnic groups be racist in societies where there are no white people? Or is your comment only applicable to the subset of societies that are white-dominated?

How would you describe the actions of e.g. a Chinese mining or construction company that maltreated its African workers in Africa? Dislike, bigotry or racism?

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MiniTheMinx · 22/08/2013 22:54

KRITIQ thank you for the links. I am just reading Chitra Nagarajan and several things struck me.

My pleas for us to focus on poverty, race, immigration status, exclusion and marginality are taken very seriously........people think ?that?s interesting? for a few minutes, to offer the illusion of diversity and to lend legitimacy with the melanin in my body to whatever is taking place

Feminism that fails to tackle the very worst most pressing and dire forms of oppression that effect the most disadvantaged women fails in its own mission.

I wanted though to concentrate on what Nagarajan lists as areas of disadvantage, poverty, immigration (status) exclusion and marginality. Poverty and immigration share in common the fact that they are not culturally defined but socially defined. Exclusion and marginality, I am assuming that Nagarajan would define these culturally.

I don't accept that racism stems from cultural differences and therefore I would argue that exclusion and marginality are the cultural manifestations of class exploitation under a capialist system that seeks to hove off groups, creating some that are super exploited. Slavery or more recently the maquiladora factories along the U.S boarder, many argue that the exploitation stems from racism but the exploitation of workers is colour blind in so far as we are all exploited but some groups are further disadvantaged. Not by skin colour or culture but because they lack social power, social power being the accumulated wealth of previous exploitation.

As a feminist, even I conclude that feminism is like many other "isms" post 70s, essentially single issue activism centred around women's liberation. A movement that fails to alleviate the subjugation of ALL women would seem to be failing. A movement that fails to listen to the different experiences of all women, failing to create equality amongst women stands little chance of achieving its mission because it lacks the methodology and tools to tackle inequality. But its mission is to tackle gender/sex inequality, no one ever claimed that feminism would tackle global warming, stagnating wages, rising poverty, racism and bring down the state!

But we have many single issue groups all proclaiming that their very own, very specific and very individual battles should take special precedence. This draws us to conceptualise oppression as being a result of cultural, racial, sexual and theocratic differences. We have new political groupings reactionary to established movements, a recent invention "the MRA groups" which is reactionary to the feminisation of labour, falling wages and rising male unemployment. In what way male unemployment and impoverishment is meant to benefit working class women is a mystery to me but the MRA think we women are celebrating a great victory.

I believe that people are encouraged through the study of history, modern media, education and mainstream politics to accept a cultural explanation, which is why feminism has to some extent made the great gains that it has for white middle class women. Liberal feminism in particular is very much in keeping with the aims of neo-liberal economic policy and political ideology. Liberal feminism is very much extended into the mainstream and not just because we women are shouting and getting our message over. If anything it is more to do with changes to the mode of production under capitalism and an acknowledgement that in the short term women could be further exploited both as cheaper labour and uber-consumer.

This cultural hegemony which goes unchallenged disallows us from starting to concentrate on what we have in common. To do so would require a different methodological approach, a theory that would explain the origins of all oppression.

The fascinating thing to me is the question of whether there is a progressive purpose to this period of liberal single issue politics where not only has feminism disowned its left wing roots but where women themselves are divided along class, race and theoretical lines. Maybe it is evolutionary in some way or maybe it is simply a product of neo-liberalism and beneficial to capitalist class exploitation.

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FreyaSnow · 22/08/2013 23:25

Mini, I don't disagree with your points about the underlying system of exploitation. I do think that such systems generally operate not just by threats of violence and/or starvation but by a process of cultural mystification around the worth of resources, what is and is not work and how much somebody's work is worth.

This process of mystification ends up taking on a life of its own. So while many of the things done to various Native American groups started out and was perpetuated in order to extract valuable resources from them and force many of them into an economic system, the concepts of racism and sexism applied to them to justify those actions and make people feel less empathy towards them when they see those actions carried out now extend far beyond their original purpose. The very high number of Native American women raped may well have its origins in that system of exploitation for economic purpose, but the people doing it are presumably doing it for racist and sexist reasons that are decoupled from those origins in resource exploitation. Dealing with the underlying capitalist issues may not make those things disappear.

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GoshAnneGorilla · 23/08/2013 03:29

Freya - I find your tools used to dismiss any criticism of Girls to be rather worrying. To summarise your arguments would appear to be:
1)Why are you criticising this programme, there are worse shows out there?
2)I think you are bigoted for criticising this programme
3)You are not qualified to criticise this programme - this would be your very untrue claim that the majority of those criticising Girls were white.

These sort of arguments are exactly the same as those used by anti-feminist men to deflect accusations of misogyny, yet you've happily employed them to counteract accusations of racism.

Also the idea that it is somehow fighting the system to defend Girls from accusations of racism, when the powers that be depend on racism being downplayed and ignored, just like they do with misogyny.

Anyway here are four different articles, all by women of colour discussing Girls. I would highly recommend you read them:

www.racialicious.com/2012/04/19/dear-lena-dunham-i-exist/

www.boston.com/community/blogs/hyphenated_life/2012/04/girls_in_white.html

www.womanist-musings.com/2012/04/hbos-girls-is-all-about-spoiled-white.html#idc-cover

jezebel.com/5903382/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-about-the-white-girls-on-girls

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garlicagain · 23/08/2013 04:06

Kritiq, I'm loving your posts on this thread!

It's not such a compliment, perhaps, as I'm uninformed and uninterested in the kind of sociological/theoretical approach to feminism, with all of its needs for classification, that is in action here.

I decided to reply, dashoflime, because I was already thinking what your critics told you, before reading that they had, indeed, said your opinion on intersectionality could only come from a white feminist.

In her very fabulous TED talk, , Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie tells about a male black activist, who gets terribly frustrated by the way she always speaks of her experiences as a black woman. "Why do you not speak purely as a black person," he asks, "why must you always dilute the point by mentioning your gender?" Because I'm black and I'm a woman, she answers. "But I'm a black man," he protests, "and I don't feel the need to keep highlighting my gender!"

If you can see why that male activist was wrong, you can also see why the white feminist is wrong to deny intersectionality :) Don't even get me started on class differences and feminism's middle-class accent.

This is all about another of Chimamanda's very good points - The danger of a single story.

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FreyaSnow · 23/08/2013 10:05

Gosh Anne, I am not actually arguing that there are no problems with the content if Girls whatsoever. I have never argued that there are other shows that are worse.

What I have argued is that there are huge numbers of other tv shows that exactly the same criticisms could be made about, but they are instead being made about a show where most of the main characters are Jewish and the writer is a Jewish woman.

Yes, I would use exactly the same argument in an argument about misogyny if the example a large number of feminists had chosen to talk about misogynistic behaviour were all about Jewish men, black men, gay men etc. I would think they were a bigot.

I have also not denied that there are POC criticising the show. There are. That doesn't make it untrue that the majority of intersectional feminists/ social justice activists are white women who are attacking Lena Dunham.

Even in the context of the four articles you have linked to, there is no mention of Lena Dunham being Jewish or the show having Jewish characters. Do you not think it is bizarre that in a discussion about minority groups who have experienced oppression all four writers are choosing to not mention that it is a show about Jewish women? Like even in passing?

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JuliaScurr · 23/08/2013 12:24

Mini I have some sympathy with the idea that the current stage of capitalism demands changes in gender relations, women's employment, etc. While needing to maintain domestic labour too. Feminism arose at a specific historical point in UK because those contradictions became so stark. Possibly...
what do you think?
(I've been up for 7 hours after 5 ish hours sleep - not really awake)

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GoshAnneGorilla · 23/08/2013 13:02

Freya - the Jewish argument is red herring because Jewish people are very well represented on US tv, Friends, Seinfield and Curb Your Enthusiam to name just 3 had main characters who were Jewish.

Also, you're missing a main plank of the criticism which is that Girls posits itself as the voice of a generation - to make that claim and only show white people in meaningful roles. On top of that set your show in an area which is 2/3non white, no the criticism is deserved.

Also, the idea that other shows don't face the same criticism, I would wonder where you are reading. Shows like Two Broke Girls have faced massive criticism for their steretyped portryals of PoC.

Film casting is also an area of huge debate, the Last Airbender is an example of this.

These discusssions are happening all the time.

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comixminx · 23/08/2013 13:18

Not able to comment on this today because of lack of time but many thanks GoshAnne for posting those links - the Racialicious one in particular is the main one I read originally, linked to via Twitter discussions so not that easy for me to trace back to.

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GoshAnneGorilla · 23/08/2013 13:28

I also need to add that Jewish people generally have white privilege or are read as white. All these four actresses could play any white role on tv, actresses of colour don't have that opportunity. Also when people see posters of the show they don't see four Jewish women, but four white women.

The article which detailed the casting notices for WoC roles in the show were a painful illustration of exactly what poor roles are available.

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FreyaSnow · 23/08/2013 13:46

GothAnne, As I have already said, it is up to Jewish people, and in this case Jewish women, to say whether or not they feel they have been adequately represented on tv. The shows you mention are no longer running. The last series of Seinfeld was made 15 years ago! These are the same arguments that are made about POC. The fact that there have been certain shows with a largely African American cast in the past does not mean that African Americans aren't under-represented and mis-represented or that we shouldn't all be pushing and campaigning to get the tv show Twenties beyond a pilot.

I disagree that shows like Two Broke Girls are equally criticised. There has been a huge hate campaign against Lena Dunham.

The recent spate of anti- Semitic graffiti that was investigated by the police at Dunham's former college (she spoke out against it and got further abuse for doing that) and led to the police identifying the main culprit. He turned out to be a member of a white ally opposed to racism group and the director of a pro-Obama group. So I don't believe for a moment that people claiming to be intersectional, opposed to white supremacy etc makes them suddenly not anti-Semitic. It is a serious issue.

And this pretty much sums up my original problem with intersectionality - it is about moral superiority. Once someone has announced they are in favour of intersectionality, the fact that they don't actually apply the same set of ideas to Jewish people, gay people, people with disabilities or whoever it is that they don't like is simply ignored.

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FreyaSnow · 23/08/2013 13:51

So what is your argument from that last post? That we shouldn't support a tv show about Jewish women because the Jewish actresses could pretend not to be Jewish and play non-Jewish roles? There are white passing POC. Do you think we should not support shows with POC characters on the basis that we could watch shows about white people and employ some white passing POC to play the parts?

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comixminx · 23/08/2013 14:33

Freya, but surely that is "Intersectionality - UR doing it RONG". Intersectionality's not only about racism, it's about (as I said originally) ablism, transphobia, and so on, and yes, about anti-semitism too. But any one of us is subject to prejudices that are in the culture and should be able to be picked up on it!

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OddSockBox · 23/08/2013 15:42

I am an intersectional feminist because feminism is for all women: disabled, poor, trans, straight, bisexual, lesbian, of a different race than myself, living in a different culture than myself...

I can't understand why anyone would want feminism just to be for white middle class women and not care about all the other women out there?

I mean it's hard, sure, I've broadened my mind learning about it and realising what other women go through that I don't experience, but we're stronger when we fight together, and we help more people.

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garlicagain · 23/08/2013 16:03

I doubt that many feminists want feminism just to be for white middle class women, OSB, but am sure the "single story", or false assumptions of commonality, causes that effect all too frequently.

On a personal level, I've found my feelings about feminism changing as I age. Age discrimination and 'able-ism' are now greater issues for me than the gender-based problems, which beset younger feminists. Of course, being an ageing woman brings its own special unpleasantness, but feminism doesn't have an awful lot to say to me about that. On balance, I'd say my age-related problems are now more pressing than my gender-related ones. The point about intersectionality is that sexism makes my age-related problems worse, not vice versa. In general, feminism doesn't seem to get this. It is a pervasive weakness ime.

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FreyaSnow · 23/08/2013 16:24

ComixMinx, sorry to sound like a stuck record, but I do not think it is all about just being better at intersectionality. The reasons why the contemporary racialisation of Jewish people is denied and they are made out to be just white people with white privilege has a complex and racist history behind it. To put it all down to an issue of intersectionality is misleading.

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garlicagain · 23/08/2013 16:58

Once someone has announced they are in favour of intersectionality, the fact that they don't actually apply the same set of ideas to Jewish people, gay people, people with disabilities or whoever it is that they don't like is simply ignored.

This is curious, Freya, because it looks to me as though you're describing "good" feminist intersectionality as blind. I question whether you'd do any good by applying the same set of ideas to white jews and to black lesbians! I must have misunderstood?

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FreyaSnow · 23/08/2013 17:24

Sorry garlic, I genuinely don't understand. Could you maybe rephrase or expand?

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GoshAnneGorilla · 23/08/2013 17:57

Freya - you are being deliberately obtuse and seem to have little understanding of how whiteness plays out in society.

Do you honestly think a show featuring four black women or women who cannot pass for white would have received the same publicity as Girls? Can you even name any shows with that sort of cast?

Did you miss the racist backlash to the Hunger Games having a black character? Or the racism dished out when Awkward Black Girl won a webby - no book deal or tv series for her, mind.

Lets be clear, this show is on a big network, had huge publicity, Lena Dunham has received a big money book deal, she is not some little victim being "hounded" by the mean WoC, who are only picking on her and have nothing else to say ever about other issues of racial representation (also love your assumption that WoC are not ever LGBT or disabled, so are silent on those issues too.)

I really resent the accusations of anti-semitism you're using here. The critiques I've linked are valid and heartfelt, for you to assign ulterior motives to them is underhand as best, and deliberately undermining at worst.

Upthread KRITQ mentioned Flavia Dzordan, a writer who has written so well about race and intersectionality in particular. The Vagenda recently did a spectacularly patronising piece about intersectionality where they not only mocked Dzordan's words, but failed to give her any credit for them. Can you guess who has got the six figure book deal and who hasn't?

You seem to think you know the answers already, without listening to what WoC have to say and you are still using the classic derailing tactic of "Why don't you care about x,y and z too?" - again this is what men do to feminists. Why are you doing this to women over race issues?

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