Wifework- I don't get it...

[louloutheshamed]

I have lurked here for a while and thought I'd try and boost my feminist credentials by doing some reading. So i read delusions of gender which I loved, I felt it articulated a lot I what I feel and experience in my life.

I have moved onto wifework and I'm just a bit baffled by it. It's Fascinating and coherently argued but the thing is I just don't recognise her description of marriage in my own marriage or those of many of my friends and peers. A typical husband as she describes would be generally accepted as a useless sorry waste of space by me and my friends, we just would not accept it. obviously I know these types
Of husbands/marriages exist but they are generally accepted to be crap. So many threads in relationships describe unequal
Partnerships but then there is always virtually a unanimous Condemnation of this behaviour by other posters.

I accept that I am slightly unusual in that I work full time and my husband went pt on the birth of my son. He does huge amounts of what is described as 'wifework' in the book, probably more than me. Moushart often starts sentences with 'I don't suppose there is a woman alive who hasn't experienced this..." and I am Screaming "well I haven't!!"

Perhaps I am the exception that proves the rule but it doesn't feel Like it in my experience. I don't even recognise my parents or in laws marriages in it as much as she suggests...

I also think, having read delusions first, that Moushart relies a lot on 'essentialist' (not sure if that is correct term) differences between genders rather than social constructs. I find it all a bit negative and bitter. When she describes how when she first got married suddenly felt like she had to be a domestic goddess type-??? I just felt like saying 'more fool you!'

Can anyone enlighten me as to what I am missing?

[AnyOldFucker]

LRD, you are a much more enlightened person than I was at your age

I was a right opinionated little upstart !

[ZutAlorsDidier]

But how / why do you want society to change? you seem to be saying that society is fine, and some individual women invite being put upon. I can't see how you want society to change, or that there is anything wrong with it, or even (sound familiar?) that there is any such thing as it.

"you really don't have to buy in to anything you don't want"

this is not true. oppression is not a choice

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

That's a bit confused, if you don't mind me saying.

You started by saying you don't see how society will change, and end by saying you do know how it will, and it's by women changing.

Then in the middle you seem to think social pressure functions in a constant way, but people can resist it (in which case, surely, it isn't very successful and is likely to evolve).

Which of these many possibilities is your view?

I do see, btw, that some of this is not straightforward, and it'd be almost rude to the generations of people who've researched and theorized this stuff to pretend it were. But we do know pretty well by now that society does influence people, and in much subtler ways that I think you are perhaps envisaging?

I also think focusing on women 'expecting more' is woman-blaming ... as if you calling yourself 'lazy' and 'selfish'. You're obviously in a bit of a mental twist at the moment, but the reason you may not feel like we're being as sympathetic to your situation as we might be, is that you're transmuting your own confusion into a way to make out it's other women's faults. That's a bit off.

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

[peteypiranha]

Women expecting more I said. Of course people can resist social pressure. I didnt ask anyone to be sympathetic to my situation. I was saying it was quite simple to evolve an equal relationship. I think everyone should be a bit selfish and lazy a lot of women on these threads give way too much.

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

I know you didn't ask people to be sympathetic.

But, which situation do you truly believe?

And why do you think it's ok to call 'an equal relationship' being 'selfish and lazy'?

Darling, if it's equal, it isn't lazy or selfish, and I don't understand why you're calling yourself names.

I think you're blaming other women because you don't even realize you're doing it - you're so used to the idea that to want anything, even equality, is a selfish activity, you don't understand why we're calling you out on the woman-blaming.

I do think this is a big problem, and it's sadly ironic that you think that if women 'expected more' they'd be ok. Start with yourself!

[BasilBabyEater]

" I do believe individual relationships hold the key to changing society, and that starts with women expecting more for themselves."

Why?

Can it not also start with men expecting to give more or not to have as much?

Why does it start with women? Are they really responsible for changing society?

Given that the people who control most of the resources, ideas and power, are men?

[AnyOldFucker]

Always back to the women's choices, ain't it ?

petey, you have a lot to learn

[peteypiranha]

I said how it evolved I was extremely lazy and selfish when younger, as most young are. I didnt do much housework for a good number of years. It was good for me though as it means I never began doing all the work. Now I am older I am competent at household stuff but never fell in to bad habits through first maternity leave etc.

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

That's a nicer way of putting it.

But I would urge you to try to stop thinking of 'selfishness' in the same breath as 'equality'.

Maybe if you did that, you would find it easier to understand what's going on?

Anyhoo, I'm off to watch shooting stars - has everyone seen? They're addictive.

[AnyOldFucker]

noooo, I have tried but not a sausage to be seen

[AnyOldFucker]

and I stood on a snail while blundered about in the dark < shudder >

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

Bleee.

Agents of the patriarchy, the crunchy little fuckers.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

Tch, well, what did you expect would happen to his sausage if you kept making him do all the housework! Total emasculation, and as for the snail... :(

[AnyOldFucker]

bleuugh

[Beveridge]

DH and I have a 'whoever has a free pair of hands does it policy'. His mothrr raised him well, probably because his father is hopeless (can't/won't pack his own case.admittedly she does it but she has probably given up).

However, at the moment I am part-time so more domestic stuff gets done by me as DH works long hours. He is alsoa DIY genius so he spends more of his time at home doing that (been renovating for most of our marriage jn various houses!)

But when we had a domestic meltdown after having DC 1 it was me who instigated Flylady and I am the 'supervisor' of the housework routine, regardless of who actually is carrying out the tasks. I woild like to think that would change when house is finished and I'm back full time but I think the organisation thing will still be done by me. Is it a personality or a gender thing?

He does frequently buy clothes for DCs though!

[ZutAlorsDidier]

One thing that I am starting to believe (and it is a major cause of friction between me and dp) is that whenever he takes care of anything ? and he does, there are things that he takes care of ? he sees it as an anomaly. He doesn?t see it as something reasonably offset against all the things I take care of. He seems to see his ?natural lot? as one in which there are no ?innate tasks? and everything that he has taken on is a task that he has, kindly, taken out of my ?natural lot?. Because of this, he expects support with it all, and infinite congratulation. He is pretty resentful of me at the moment. I don?t see any way of changing this, because I don?t think he does more than me, I don't have a joule of spare energy, and I don?t think he deserves more praise than me (which he already gets, by the way, because I do comment positively on the things he does but he doesn?t comment on what I do, but it?s not enough arse-licking apparently) but we will never see eye to eye on it. I could insincerely arse-lick more, but I don't think that would help us in the long run as it would just mean me buying into a world-view that will actually kill me with exhaustion.

What has recently become apparent to me is that because of this, although we can sort of agree to differ and rub along ok, there are certain nice things that will never happen. One of them is that when my workload is too great, and I am in danger of collapse, no one is going to be nice about it, or proactive about helping me. I have to monitor this myself and I don?t like it because I feel selfish when I give myself breaks. I feel ? although I know this is not true ? that I am taking something I don?t deserve, even when I am just preventing a break-down. This is something I have to accept though, or it won?t happen, and I will have a break down. I would prefer some willing support to be actively given, rather than grudgingly forced by me.

The other thing that won?t happen is that I get any clear-eyed respect at home for all that I do. He is absolutely incapable of seeing that I do anything because he is so obsessed with what he does, and what he sees as my unfair lack of endless grovelling about it. I would like to be able to draw attention to what I do but every single conversation in which I have tried to be assertive about this has just resulted in him kicking off, because he is honestly very very angry, apparently, sincerely, that he does anything at all! This is damaging because it makes me want to dwell on things I need to let go of ? I am always justifying myself to myself ? and remember too hard and too painfully his lack of support and taking for granted of my bodily deracination in the bf-ing years, for instance. It makes me want to put it all on a scale, every last pebble, and that will never happen. What I need to do is focus on the occasional congratulation of others, who tell me my children are a credit to me, for instance, or that I am doing something difficult by working in a high powered full time job while having small children. It just will never happen at home. That makes me sad sometimes, but what can you do?

[working9while5]

Dh grew up in the sort of house where his mother was still packing his bags in his twenties but he's adapted well. He does all laundry, hoovering, garden work, bins, cleaning kitchen and doing dishes in evening, cleaning fridge, ironing, splits cooking equally, splits childcare cover if ill/bed and bathtime etc, shopping. I organise... where things go, clutter watch, our appointments, bathroom cleaning, putting away stuff, washing floors, window cleaning, home improvements, social engagements to a point and I sort of strategize when it comes to the kids education/behaviour and we agree a plan etc as this is my professional background. I work p/t but tbh this is something I want for me... I was burning out at work predc and I prefer the balance, also my commute was shocking so three days fine with smallies.

I don't think we are highly feminist in any grand sense, the alternative of me becoming like his mother was just never on offer.

[AnyOldFucker]

Zut, that sounds very hard and very unfair

I don't think you should be accepting of the fair accompli, actually. Something has to give and it shouldn't be your physical or mental health, because what would happen then ?

[AnyOldFucker]

*fait

[ZutAlorsDidier]

But what do you think I could do? I can't make someone see things my way. It can't be done. I could leave, maybe I will one day, but would prefer not to. When the children are gone and there will be less work perhaps I will mind less and there will be less need to leave. While the children are here it seems important to look after them and worry about the detail later.
It seems sad and bleak laid out like that, but seriously, talking about taking steps, what can I do?

In recent years it has become apparent to me, weirdly starkly, how incredibly sexist my mother is (although she taught me feminism in a way). She would never ever knowingly inconvenience a man (no matter how annoyed she was about what an arse he was being). I am sad to think that I might be passing all this nonsense on to dds.

[AnyOldFucker]

You are right of course that children will model what they see in their own future relationships

I can only speak personally here about what I would do faced with such iniquity and disregard for the fairness of the situation. I put it down to respect, pure and simple. If this man doesn't respect the fact that I am entitled to the same amount of leisure time as him, then he really isn't the man for me and I don't want to live my life like that

I had a lot of similar boundary laying conversations early on in my marriage, but if you have an inherently decent and fair minded partner things should improve

If they don't, then perhaps you do need to reconsider your position

[AnyOldFucker]

Sorry to be blunt, I am on my phone and it's a pita to type

[maja00]

Why do you feel selfish about taking a break? Is that something you can change?

Is a lot of the work you do stuff for him? I don't know - I think in that situation I would keep myself and the children clean and fed and stop doing anything else until I got some acknowledgement.

One thing I have noticed is, men don't feel guilty about doing the minimum. Most fathers wouldn't agonise about not interacting enough with the children - they just stick the football on and keep half an eye on any fights. If you go to soft play or the park, it's mostly dads reading the paper or glued to their iPad while kids play. If men are tired they go for a nap! They don't fret that the table hasn't been wiped from lunch, crumbs on the floor don't reflect poorly on them. I know these are sweeping generalisations, but so many women say they can't sit down and relax if there's work to be done or other people are busy, they don't leave the room unless they've double checked their husband is watching the children - whereas DP will nip upstairs and disappear into his office any chance he gets.

[MadameLeBean]

Can someone tell me what flylady is?